JoeSixpack
New member
Ok there was already a thread on this, It got shut down for being a drive by..
Apparently that's a weak first post or a thread with low quality replies.
I still think it has merit for discussion so Im gonna attempt to write a decent first post and you guys/gals follow up with some good feedback and lets see if we can keep this one open.
Instead of poisting the link to the video I'll just post to the closed thread which has the link.. there's a few good posts over there IMO also.
https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=588887
So go watch that, read the posts, come on back and lets talk.
Ok first off clearly this is a SAVAGE, and I mean SAVAGE beating this guy took.
Now I'd like to hit this scenario from a dual prong approach.
1. You're the victim.. obviously.
2. You're a bystander.
Now I think we can all agree and call out this guys first mistake.. it's obvious.. he's focused in on his wallet and nothing else.
So let's not dwell on that mistake to much, let's move on.
So let's just say the guy has your wallet and refuses to give it back.. maybe you dropped it? Ok I think that's a perfectly human mistake we can all relate.
Picking up from that the victim here had to feel the threat of a emmenant physical assault.. he might not have known exactly when or how it would come but he had to of felt the building probability of it.
But what do you do? This guy might not have been armed but nearly everyone here carries so put your self in his shoes.. what would YOU do?
Now this was briefly touched on in the other thread.
We've got a BG who appears unarmed, It's a 1on1 situation, The victim might a have been outmatched but does not particularly look disabled.. he was 39.
So my thought is he's probably not in that area of fearing for his life just yet, He probably can't draw from a legal standpoint... So far the BG just has property (wallet) so im sure in most states you're within your rights to use.. some force to try to recover your property.. and this is where it gets tricky.
I've only been in a few fights, nothing serious no one got knocked out.
And I've seen a some of fights in real life as well as a LOT on the internet.
1 thing I've noticed.
Fights where they're both ready for a fight tend to go a little longer.
But fights that start with one party sucker punching the other is usually over very quickly.. sometimes with just 1 punch.
Most fights don't stop when someones knocked down.. VERY high probability once you're on the ground the attacker is either going to rain punches on you or move over to even more dangerous stomps and kicks.
Im sure we've all heard the advice.. do not pull a gun over a punch.
The sentiment of that advice makes sense at face value as we don't often consider a punch to be fatal, and yet it sometimes is.
Every once in a while someone will get punched, fall down, crack their head and die.. then it's a homicide.
Even if you don't go down on the 1st punch it's always followed by a 2nd, 3rd, 4th.. people are really bad about constraint in a first fight.
That 1st punch might not do you in but that just sets you up stunned for the rain behind it.
So the way I see it is sometimes ya 1 punch is fatal or at least sets you up to be incapacitated.
Now another piece of advice that im fond of is.
"When you're armed, ALL confrontations are deadly."
Think about this.. You are armed, You've lost the fight and are now no longer able to bring your gun to bear.. At best they leave you be, worse case they take the gun and kill you with it.
Given that thought can you afford to fight and loose a physical confrontation while carrying? In my mind NO.
But if we wait till we are beatin half senseless to where we could make a legal argument.. hey this guy is gonna kill me.. you're probably not in any situation to do anything about it.
So I find situations like this very paradoxical.
Ok so I explained my mind set on it a very long winded way.. I asked you what you would do now I should tell you what I'd do?
I dunno.. and that's the problem, And this is not the first time I've ran this thru my head either.. quite on the contrary.
In this particular case I suppose he could just let the guy walk he just wants his money not HIM.
So would pulling your phone out and taking a snapshot of his face be a good idea? hmm.. a close up picture would be good but who's to say this guy is going to sit there long enough for that? and if he does, Maybe he's not to happy about it, and now you're back to square 1.. guy still seemly unarmed you have 3 choices, attack, submit, draw weapon.
Im wondering if Door# 3.. non lethal weapon would have been a good choice.
I don't have much stock in stun guns (contact kind), tasers are kinda expensive but maybe thats something we should look at?
pepper spray I know is effective, I've had a taste when I was a kid by mistake (leaky spray can), But I also know that it's not 100% some are immune to it, the victim usually gets a taste as well, and it's not immediate.. it takes a little time to take effect.. it's quick but not instant.
It is however reasonably cheap and easy to carry.. so im gonna seriously give that some thought.
So you're saying Joe Sixpack you're not answering the question.
Ok so here it is guys.
I only carry a gun.. I also carry a knife but not as a weapon. (Knives are lethal anyway)
So basically as far as weapons go I have my body and my gun.. nothing in between.. given that situation.....
I probably would not have drawn.. but I would have probably attacked first made it a good one and not let up, I would have fought dirty and made sure I won, I would have beat him like he beat this victim.. I would have been the BG.
Right or wrong you can critique that (and please do that's an invite)
I wanna hear what you would have done, What I could have done different.
This is something I've ran thru a few times as mental exercises and I usually come up with bad and worse options.. at least from a legal standpoint it would be real easy to just shoot them and eliminate the threat if there was no consequences, But we can't walk around in Charles Bronson mode.
Ok P.o.V #2, bystander.
This ones a little easier, less skin in the game.
I would have done nothing up until the point the BG has attacks the victim.. Once he's on the ground and being beaten, I'd have to step in man.. that beating was way to brutal for me to just stand there.
I'd have probably kicked the BG in the ribs as hard as possible to stun him which probably would roll him on his back..
Once I has his attention draw and tell him to stay down.
At that point it's not about money.. I think we can all agree the victim was in fear of his life at that point and the BG had plenty of opportunity & capability to finish him off had he not just got tired and left.
I know a lot do not agree with getting involved and I fully agree that should be done cautiously, But if im in line and see that go down how could I let him beat the man like a disobedient dog?
The victim lived but I think he could have easily been killed.
So tell me what you would do, Tell me what you think I should do different.
Im especially interested in view points on 1on1 attacks by an unarmed BG while you're carrying.. This nearly never comes up in conversation, But I think it's important to think about it.
P.S
Sorry about the long post, At least we can say this ain't a drive by
Brevity was never my strong suit and this is a situation that I've struggled to find a good solution for.
Im giving serious consideration to carrying pepper spray now though.
EDIT: For those having trouble viewing the video
https://streamable.com/xn92o
Apparently that's a weak first post or a thread with low quality replies.
I still think it has merit for discussion so Im gonna attempt to write a decent first post and you guys/gals follow up with some good feedback and lets see if we can keep this one open.
Instead of poisting the link to the video I'll just post to the closed thread which has the link.. there's a few good posts over there IMO also.
https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=588887
So go watch that, read the posts, come on back and lets talk.
Ok first off clearly this is a SAVAGE, and I mean SAVAGE beating this guy took.
Now I'd like to hit this scenario from a dual prong approach.
1. You're the victim.. obviously.
2. You're a bystander.
Now I think we can all agree and call out this guys first mistake.. it's obvious.. he's focused in on his wallet and nothing else.
So let's not dwell on that mistake to much, let's move on.
So let's just say the guy has your wallet and refuses to give it back.. maybe you dropped it? Ok I think that's a perfectly human mistake we can all relate.
Picking up from that the victim here had to feel the threat of a emmenant physical assault.. he might not have known exactly when or how it would come but he had to of felt the building probability of it.
But what do you do? This guy might not have been armed but nearly everyone here carries so put your self in his shoes.. what would YOU do?
Now this was briefly touched on in the other thread.
We've got a BG who appears unarmed, It's a 1on1 situation, The victim might a have been outmatched but does not particularly look disabled.. he was 39.
So my thought is he's probably not in that area of fearing for his life just yet, He probably can't draw from a legal standpoint... So far the BG just has property (wallet) so im sure in most states you're within your rights to use.. some force to try to recover your property.. and this is where it gets tricky.
I've only been in a few fights, nothing serious no one got knocked out.
And I've seen a some of fights in real life as well as a LOT on the internet.
1 thing I've noticed.
Fights where they're both ready for a fight tend to go a little longer.
But fights that start with one party sucker punching the other is usually over very quickly.. sometimes with just 1 punch.
Most fights don't stop when someones knocked down.. VERY high probability once you're on the ground the attacker is either going to rain punches on you or move over to even more dangerous stomps and kicks.
Im sure we've all heard the advice.. do not pull a gun over a punch.
The sentiment of that advice makes sense at face value as we don't often consider a punch to be fatal, and yet it sometimes is.
Every once in a while someone will get punched, fall down, crack their head and die.. then it's a homicide.
Even if you don't go down on the 1st punch it's always followed by a 2nd, 3rd, 4th.. people are really bad about constraint in a first fight.
That 1st punch might not do you in but that just sets you up stunned for the rain behind it.
So the way I see it is sometimes ya 1 punch is fatal or at least sets you up to be incapacitated.
Now another piece of advice that im fond of is.
"When you're armed, ALL confrontations are deadly."
Think about this.. You are armed, You've lost the fight and are now no longer able to bring your gun to bear.. At best they leave you be, worse case they take the gun and kill you with it.
Given that thought can you afford to fight and loose a physical confrontation while carrying? In my mind NO.
But if we wait till we are beatin half senseless to where we could make a legal argument.. hey this guy is gonna kill me.. you're probably not in any situation to do anything about it.
So I find situations like this very paradoxical.
Ok so I explained my mind set on it a very long winded way.. I asked you what you would do now I should tell you what I'd do?
I dunno.. and that's the problem, And this is not the first time I've ran this thru my head either.. quite on the contrary.
In this particular case I suppose he could just let the guy walk he just wants his money not HIM.
So would pulling your phone out and taking a snapshot of his face be a good idea? hmm.. a close up picture would be good but who's to say this guy is going to sit there long enough for that? and if he does, Maybe he's not to happy about it, and now you're back to square 1.. guy still seemly unarmed you have 3 choices, attack, submit, draw weapon.
Im wondering if Door# 3.. non lethal weapon would have been a good choice.
I don't have much stock in stun guns (contact kind), tasers are kinda expensive but maybe thats something we should look at?
pepper spray I know is effective, I've had a taste when I was a kid by mistake (leaky spray can), But I also know that it's not 100% some are immune to it, the victim usually gets a taste as well, and it's not immediate.. it takes a little time to take effect.. it's quick but not instant.
It is however reasonably cheap and easy to carry.. so im gonna seriously give that some thought.
So you're saying Joe Sixpack you're not answering the question.
Ok so here it is guys.
I only carry a gun.. I also carry a knife but not as a weapon. (Knives are lethal anyway)
So basically as far as weapons go I have my body and my gun.. nothing in between.. given that situation.....
I probably would not have drawn.. but I would have probably attacked first made it a good one and not let up, I would have fought dirty and made sure I won, I would have beat him like he beat this victim.. I would have been the BG.
Right or wrong you can critique that (and please do that's an invite)
I wanna hear what you would have done, What I could have done different.
This is something I've ran thru a few times as mental exercises and I usually come up with bad and worse options.. at least from a legal standpoint it would be real easy to just shoot them and eliminate the threat if there was no consequences, But we can't walk around in Charles Bronson mode.
Ok P.o.V #2, bystander.
This ones a little easier, less skin in the game.
I would have done nothing up until the point the BG has attacks the victim.. Once he's on the ground and being beaten, I'd have to step in man.. that beating was way to brutal for me to just stand there.
I'd have probably kicked the BG in the ribs as hard as possible to stun him which probably would roll him on his back..
Once I has his attention draw and tell him to stay down.
At that point it's not about money.. I think we can all agree the victim was in fear of his life at that point and the BG had plenty of opportunity & capability to finish him off had he not just got tired and left.
I know a lot do not agree with getting involved and I fully agree that should be done cautiously, But if im in line and see that go down how could I let him beat the man like a disobedient dog?
The victim lived but I think he could have easily been killed.
So tell me what you would do, Tell me what you think I should do different.
Im especially interested in view points on 1on1 attacks by an unarmed BG while you're carrying.. This nearly never comes up in conversation, But I think it's important to think about it.
P.S
Sorry about the long post, At least we can say this ain't a drive by
Brevity was never my strong suit and this is a situation that I've struggled to find a good solution for.
Im giving serious consideration to carrying pepper spray now though.
EDIT: For those having trouble viewing the video
https://streamable.com/xn92o
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