Garrett Cartridges, Inc.

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Randy Garrett

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This last week has seen the launching of some extremely intemperate and patently false accusations regarding Garrett Cartridges and our practices. Since these comments were of an unusually severe nature, I feel that I must respond and set the record straight.

In a recent posting a contributor stated, "Readers be warned that Randy Garrett sells cartridges using methods not agreed upon by industry loading groups." This apparently results from this individual's dismay over our casting procedures. It seems that since we do not march in lockstep with certain other members of the industry, this person has determined that we are unqualified. This is strange indeed, as there is a broad range of opinion regarding legitimate casting procedures. However, since our casting procedures have been called into question, I feel that a review of our practices is in order. All of our casting is done in shop, and involves handcasting. This is more labor intensive than either buying commercial machine cast bullets or machine casting bullets ourselves, but results in better bullets. Our blocks are state of the art Hensley & Gibbs heavy cast iron blocks, which provide unusually good temperature control. Our alloy is a special silver enriched, low-antimony alloy with a trace of arsenic for extra hardening potential. All casting is done with high temperature alloy and blocks, and the sprues are cut as soon as the cut can be accomplished without smearing. The bullets are then immediately dropped into cold water, which results in a Brinnell hardness of 25. Our choice of a silver enriched, low antimony alloy is significant as it yields bullets with low fracture potential. Most commercial efforts to produce really hard cast bullets involve the use of relatively high antimony alloys since those alloys are the easiest to work with when using automatic casting machines. However, high antimony alloys tend to fracture when stressed beyond their inherent strength, something that cannot be tolerated when hunting heavy or potentially dangerous game. Our selection of a silver enriched, low antimony alloy results in a bullet that when stressed beyond its inherent strength simply deforms modestly, as opposed to the castrophic shattering of high antimony alloys.

In another recent posting, it was stated that "My conversations with you so far scare me in that there is someone selling a product that is as ignorant of practical ballistics as you." I would like to respond to this. Our products are absolutely on the cutting edge of ballistic development, something anyone can conclude that reads the national shooting press. Our 44 Magnum Hammerhead bullets are a good example of this. For a number of years we produced 44 Magnum ammo using 310-grain SWC bullets. That ammo was widely hailed as the best 44 Magnum ammo money could buy for hunting big game animals, and received over 100 reviews in the national shooting press. Among those praising that load as the best was Finn Aagaard, Jim Wilson, Bart Skelton, John Taffin, Craig Boddington, Charles Petty, Hal Swiggett, Jeff Cooper, and many others. However, it became clear to me that a better load could be designed, and that led to our new Hammerhead designs. Research and development of our new Hammerheads lasted for about a year and involved all manner of ballistic testing, including pressure testing, accuracy testing, firerarm compatibility testing, and impact testing. By comparison to our old 310-grain SWC load, our new 310-grain Hammerhead load uses a bullet with a weight-forward design that moves much more of the bullet out of the case and into the chamber throat of the revolver. This allows us to deliver about 100-fps higher velocity with lower pressure than our previous 310-grain SWC load. This new Hammerhead design is the talk of the industry and has even been credited with virtually saving the caliber from obsolescence (see Payton Miller's comments in GUNS & AMMO, 12-98). This new Hammerhead bullet also delivers deeper penetration than our old 310-grain SWC, and it does so with a much blunter front end (meplat: .320" vs .285"). Where accuracy is concerned our 44 Magnum Hammerheads are being routinely reported as producing 1" to 1.5" 5-shot groups at 50-yard from accurate revolvers.

It has also been alleged that we do not pressure test our ammo. This is absolutely false. All of the products we have built during our 12 years of production have been subjected to professional pressure testing. For the last 6 years that pressure testing has been complimented by our own pressure testing which occurs with great frequency. We place safety above all other consideration, and never sell a product that has not been carefully tested for pressure, bullet integrity, accuracy, and overall impact-effect.

Building high performance 44 Magnum and 45-70 ammunition is our passion, and only pursuit. We could not take it more seriously than we do. Any review of the shooting press fully supports our claims of quality, and clearly demonstrates the falsity of some of the recent intemperate comments made on TFL by a troubled contributor. In fact, I encourage everyone to check out our reviews page on our web site to see what the industry has been saying about our products. Their comments are very definitive. I appreciate your patience with this long commentary, but when irresponsible contributors attack well established and respected businesses, the record needs to be set straight.

Best regards, Randy Garrett www.garrettcartridges.com

[This message has been edited by Randy Garrett (edited March 30, 2000).]
 
Garrett has impeccable credentials.

There are other companies that are now producing premium dangerous-game loads in .45-70 and .44 Mag that are arguably as good, but have not yet been subjected to the real-world usage that Garrett rounds have.

Paco Kelly ( sixgunner.com )has this to say about Randy:
And for those that want to hunt with the 45 Colt/Ruger or the 44 magnum, but don’t reload, along comes Buffalo Bore Ammo, Garrett ‘s Ammo and Cor-Bon Ammo in hunting loads both with jacketed and LBT shaped hard cast heavy bullets. I have used Buffalo Bore and Garrett’s Ammo extensively in 45 Colt and 44 Magnum hunting loads....accurate and deadly, even out too long ranges for a sixgun...
I used Garrett’s 44 magnum ammo the year before last on elk... I used Garrett’s 310 grain load...it has his HAMMERHEAD bullet...I talked about the hammerhead shape in my book back in 1985 and it’s killing abilities. Randy Garrett also makes a 330 grain 44 mag load....but the boxes are clearly marked what guns these loads can be used in...the 330 HHD is for Ruger Redhawk class and the 310 can be used in the Ruger Blackhawks....I appreciate that kind of safety information offered by any manufacturer...unfortunately I don’t see it too often, not nearly enough. But then Randy Garrett is a special kind of person and has a special kind of ammo company.


I would say that about sums it up.


(Incidentally, the same respected authority has this to say about which .44's are the strongest:
The strongest two handguns in 44 magnum...outside of the Automag series...are the Ruger Redhawk series and the Freedom Arms five shooters. )
 
Oh, forgot to say this:
I do quite a bit of research, and typically know a lot about any product before I purchase it.

I will have a .45-70 soon, and hope to take a Cape Buffalo with it one day. Cape Buff are the most dangerous land animals in the minds of many, and unquestionably one of the most dangerous.

If I am able to take that Buff, when the hammer drops, it will probably be sending a Garrett's 530-gr hard cast bullet on its way. I trust this as good ammo for bad days, without question.
 
I'm no expert, but I do own a .44 magnum. I also have several friends who are 45-70 nuts. I plan on joining their ranks soon. The point is that I pay attention to writings about .44 ammo and to a lesser extent .45-70 ammo. I have never read or heard anything but positive comments/reviews of Garrett Cartridges.

Erik
 
Wait a minute! I do remember a guy complaining that it was expensive... Easily enough solved. Randy, how about offering everything at half price? There. That should settle everything.
smile.gif


Erik
 
Received An ammo order from Randy about two weeks ago, Got 100 rounds of 310 grain, and 50 rounds of 330 grain +p. Cost me $207 including shipping. After a session at the range Its the only ammo I intend to use in my Super RedHawk, for hunting anyway.
 
I've used Garrett ammo for five years in my Super Redhawk and my S & W Model 29. I've killed deer with this ammo (intended purpose). It produces the best groups of any ammo I've tried. I order a box (310 gr)a year and will order another box this year before deer season. Expensive? yes. Worth it? YES!! Any problems? NO. doctor j
 
handcannon1, yes, indeed, you will get flamed for your post.

You have posted a total of 3 times and became a member on March 30th, yet you have read every discussion in the Handguns and Reloading forums? You are absolutely incorrect that there is a lot of advertising of Garrett Cartridges. What you read in this post is a response by Randy Garrett to some rude sniping by another member. While it is true that we don't allow advertising in general on TFL, this is not advertising as such. Randy felt, and rightly so, that he had to set the record straight as he and his company had been maligned.

Please point out where anyone has "flamed the regular guys."
 
Well, as for Randy's stuff being expensive,
ya gets what ya pays fur, and I've budgeted for 2 boxes of his 530gr loads for my .45-70.

I've seen absolutely nothing even *resembling* hot air in Randy's posts, as opposed to some others I could name. The man is one of the most respected big-bore ammo makers in the US, he's intelligent and well-spoken, and he doesn't slag other peoples' products.

If someone wants to belittle and insult him or any other member, go do it in your own venue on your own dime.
 
OK, you both made your points, now can we get on with things? For those of you who really think this must continue, I'll sum it up for you:

Randy Garrett has done lots of good stuff. He is endorsed by big hitters as well as respected members here. He disagrees with Protoolman and apparently some others in the industry on methods, which is his right.

Protoolman has helped a lot of us along as well. He is certified to talk about Rugers with some authority and has experience with big-bore cartridges. He disagrees with Mr. Garrett and thus will not endorse the Garrett product, as is his right.

That's all we need to know, guys. Really, we can make the decisions from there on in. Personally, I doubt I'll ever fire a Garrett cartridge 'cause they're expensive, but I don't intend to hunt anything that will hunt me back, which gives you a different perspective on price.
 
Regarding the issue of chamber pressure, our standard 310-grain 44 Magnum load generates a maximum average chamber pressure of 33,000-psi at 70F. This is identical to the Federal 300-grain Cast-Core ammo. This is a full 3,000-psi less than the 36,000-psi SAAMI recommends as a maximum average. Our 330-grain +P ammo exceeds SAAMI recommended maximum average at 41,000-psi. Our 330-grainer has a very long nose which precludes its use in S&Ws and Super Blackhawks, and a variety of less popular, standard cylinder length revolvers. It is simply too long to allow the closing or turning of the cylinder if tried in those guns. This pressure level is entirely safe in the Ruger Redhawk and Super Redhawk due to their unusually strong construction, especially the thick walled long cylinder. It is instructive that Ruger was able to take the Super Redhawk and rechamber it to 454 Casull with its pressures in the 60,000-psi range, and do so without having to go to a beefier cylinder, only a better heat treatment was necessary. The thicker chamber walls of the 44 Magnum Ruger double-action certainly possess more than adequate strength for a 41,000-psi load.
Our 45-70 loads are all designated as +P, and exceed the ultra-conservative 28,000-psi recommendation with a more modern 33,000-psi. Although exceeding the old 28,000-psi recommendation, these pressure limits resulted from talks with the guys at Marlin. Also, these loads generate far less pressure than some of the competition.

Best regards, Randy Garrett www.garrettcartridges.com


[This message has been edited by Randy Garrett (edited March 31, 2000).]
 
I have knowledge of Randy Garrett long before this forum. I have heard nothing but good about him. His reputation speaks for itself. If someone doesn't like his products by all means don't use them. Randy is a contributor of a wealth of information on this board and IMO not a commercial advertiser. If his sharing of his knowledge results in the sale of some of his products I don't see what the problem is. No one is holding a gun to my head saying buy his products or else. Keep up the good work Randy.

Joefo
 
First, screw SAAMI.

Second, as a small custom ammunition manufacturer I would like to applaud Garrett Cartridge as an example to follow in the 'hot load' field.

Third, if I didn't make ammo I'd be using Garrett (and Buffalo Bore for my 45) in my Redhawks..........

............quit yer whinin'............

-------------------------------------------

"all my respect is factory respect"
 
I don't know anything about Randy Garrett or his product, but I welcome any manufacturer to post here on The Firing Line. We are better for their input...
 
I've never used Randy's stuff.

I don't know Randy personally.

I DO know people that do use his stuff, and DO know that his reputation for testing and development preceeds him. By all accounts, this is not just his company; this is his life. He thus takes this way, WAY more seriously than a hobby handloader, which, admittedly, I am.

Randy provides pressures and specs for all his loads. His repeatability is well-known. There is science in those loads.

When I own a Marlin .45-70, I will treat myself to a box or three of Randy's best. I have plenty of fun handloading for the Super Blackhawk I shoot already.

No slight to Protoolman, but Randy Garret is Garret Cartridges. If it offends you to see the two linked on this board, perhaps a hiatus?
 
Hi Randy. Despite any dissenting opinions, I want you to know that I am very glad to read your posts, as they always contain useful information. I suppose if, for example, Mitch Rosen showed up on this board and talked about holsters, or if Wayne Novak showed up and talked about pistolsmithing, those same folks would gripe about "advertising" and "the wrong board" also. Personally, I'd rather put any sort of jealousies or issues aside and garner solid info from someone who knows their field. Regards, and keep posting.
 
Garrett cartridges go beyond mere weights and velocities.
Some months ago, Randy Garrett posted what amounted to a treatise on the terminal ballistics of various bullet shapes here on TFL.
I basically had to throw out much of what I "thought" I knew about terminal ballistics.

I was so impressed that I asked him if I could use that post as a "lesson" on my bear maulings web site. He not only agreed, but re-wrote and expanded it into what (IMHO) is the most succinct and sensible piece I've ever seen on the subject.

The Bear Maulings Page is not a commercial site - I don't make a dime so please don't get your knickers in a twist for my plug.

I think you'll all be suitably impressed by what Randy has learned from shooting hundreds of thousands of rounds of various shapes, weights and velocities over the last 20 years or so.
You can get to the site via the link by my signature. From the opening page, jump to the "Bear Defense - Artillery" page. Then from near the bottom of that page use the link "More on Guns and Loads" to read Randy's stuff. It WILL be worth the trip.



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Keith
The Bears and Bear Maulings Page: members.xoom.com/keithrogan
 
Since the purpose for this thread was for Randy to clarify his position, there is no need to keep this thread open any longer so I'll lock 'er down.
 
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