Garand in an urban environment
- Thread starter Dave3006
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dave3006:
Can the 30-06 round be downloaded or modified and still work and not kill people in the next 5 houses?[/quote]
It can to a certain extent with cast bullets be made to have less power, but as with all autos there is a minimum at which the rifle will function. I have never experimented with the Garand and cast bullets but have heard that it can still function with a 180-200 grain bullet at around 2000 fps. this will cut it down from 5 houses to maybe 1 or 2.
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Carlyle Hebert
[This message has been edited by Southla1 (edited August 03, 2000).]
Can the 30-06 round be downloaded or modified and still work and not kill people in the next 5 houses?[/quote]
It can to a certain extent with cast bullets be made to have less power, but as with all autos there is a minimum at which the rifle will function. I have never experimented with the Garand and cast bullets but have heard that it can still function with a 180-200 grain bullet at around 2000 fps. this will cut it down from 5 houses to maybe 1 or 2.
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Carlyle Hebert
[This message has been edited by Southla1 (edited August 03, 2000).]
I don't know if glaser or magsafe makes 06 rounds or if they will function properly. They would be your best bet. Or attach the long bayonet and you could stick them right through the wall. The previous post is right no one in your neighborhood would be safe if you cut loose with ball ammo.
Even if you could find Magsafe and Glasers in .30-06, by the time you got finished testing them you'd have shot enough money downrange to buy a Remington 870 slug gun. They are at least a dollar a round and normally come packaged in bubble packs of 5.
Any .30-06 round used for home defense will overpenetrate. It might be possible to limit penetration somewhat with 125 gr soft points or 150 grain Ballistics Tips which are very frangible-- these will still get through a brick wall but might have broken up enough to not repenetrate another house... maybe.
Any .30-06 round used for home defense will overpenetrate. It might be possible to limit penetration somewhat with 125 gr soft points or 150 grain Ballistics Tips which are very frangible-- these will still get through a brick wall but might have broken up enough to not repenetrate another house... maybe.
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
Over-penetration, for sure. But just think what you can do to a getaway car, with tracers! Or retaliation on a Drive-By!
, Art
, Art30-06 semi auto's for home defense. I have a friend who came to me for help with this problem.
If you don't handload.
You have two basic choices:
Remington or Federal 125 grain SP @ 3100 to 3200fps; or Federal or Winchester 150 ballistic tip @ 2900.
If you handload you could try the 110 grain V max, 125 Ballistic tip, or any 125 varmint bullet.
Varmint bullets are designed to blow up and fragment both to kill varmints cleanly and to reduce ricochet.
You want high velocity and varmint bullet construction.
BTW the 125 Remington worked fine in my friends 760 but you will have to test it in your gun for reliability.
[This message has been edited by Glamdring (edited August 04, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Glamdring (edited August 04, 2000).]
If you don't handload.
You have two basic choices:
Remington or Federal 125 grain SP @ 3100 to 3200fps; or Federal or Winchester 150 ballistic tip @ 2900.
If you handload you could try the 110 grain V max, 125 Ballistic tip, or any 125 varmint bullet.
Varmint bullets are designed to blow up and fragment both to kill varmints cleanly and to reduce ricochet.
You want high velocity and varmint bullet construction.
BTW the 125 Remington worked fine in my friends 760 but you will have to test it in your gun for reliability.
[This message has been edited by Glamdring (edited August 04, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Glamdring (edited August 04, 2000).]
I have not tried them in my Garand yet, but the Remington Accelerators might be an option ... they come in .308 and -06 and push a 55 grain softpoint out towards 3800fps ... this ought to cause a ton of fragmentation on impact ... added plus: no rifling marks on the fragments that do survive
saands
saands
Excellent. I just bought a Remington 7600 pump-action in .308 to "replace" my evil AR15 clone. Now I just need a supply of this Accelerator round.
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Protect your Right to Keep and Bear Arms!
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Support the US Olympic Shooting Team!
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Well, I think a used Mossberg pump 12-ga. goes for less than $200, so using a Garand for home defense is strictly optional.
I would avoid using anything other than IMR 4895 or 4064 or equivalent for reloads, as a slower burning powder can bend the Garand's op-rod.
If you live in a rural area, this rifle may be an option. I can't think of a single reason to use it for urban home defense, aside from facing thugs in Level 3+ body armor.
I can tell you from experience that muzzle blast is punishing in an enclosed space. A gun club I belong to has an enclosed firing line (i.e. open only on side towards target butts) and a Garand-only highpower match is as much an endurance contest as it is a shooting contest. Plugs and muffs are borderline effective.
Fun theoretical post, but buy the Mossberg.
PS- you can mail order the sabot (that's SAY-BOW) you'll need to make your own subcaliber 30-06 ammo
[This message has been edited by Keystone (edited August 04, 2000).]
I would avoid using anything other than IMR 4895 or 4064 or equivalent for reloads, as a slower burning powder can bend the Garand's op-rod.
If you live in a rural area, this rifle may be an option. I can't think of a single reason to use it for urban home defense, aside from facing thugs in Level 3+ body armor.
I can tell you from experience that muzzle blast is punishing in an enclosed space. A gun club I belong to has an enclosed firing line (i.e. open only on side towards target butts) and a Garand-only highpower match is as much an endurance contest as it is a shooting contest. Plugs and muffs are borderline effective.
Fun theoretical post, but buy the Mossberg.
PS- you can mail order the sabot (that's SAY-BOW) you'll need to make your own subcaliber 30-06 ammo
[This message has been edited by Keystone (edited August 04, 2000).]
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Casey:
I dont't think that you are going to want to shoot lead slugs in a M1, are you? I thought that the lead slugs would possibly harm the gas cyclinder or the bleed of hole...
Or maybe I am just imagining this. It is awfull early.
Casey[/quote]
I dont't think that you are going to want to shoot lead slugs in a M1, are you? I thought that the lead slugs would possibly harm the gas cyclinder or the bleed of hole...
Or maybe I am just imagining this. It is awfull early.
Casey[/quote]
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Casey:
I dont't think that you are going to want to shoot lead slugs in a M1, are you? I thought that the lead slugs would possibly harm the gas cyclinder or the bleed of hole...[/quote]
Casey, at one time that was the thought however there were some tests run where it was either 150 rounds or 1000 (can't remember which...they say the first thing to go is the memory
) of cast bullets were fired ina Garand without cleaning it. It was then disassembled and checked and there was no lead buildup in the gas port or the gas cylinder. The face of the piston on the op rod was clean also. Looks like it won't hurt the grand old Garand at all.
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Carlyle Hebert
I dont't think that you are going to want to shoot lead slugs in a M1, are you? I thought that the lead slugs would possibly harm the gas cyclinder or the bleed of hole...[/quote]
Casey, at one time that was the thought however there were some tests run where it was either 150 rounds or 1000 (can't remember which...they say the first thing to go is the memory
) of cast bullets were fired ina Garand without cleaning it. It was then disassembled and checked and there was no lead buildup in the gas port or the gas cylinder. The face of the piston on the op rod was clean also. Looks like it won't hurt the grand old Garand at all.------------------
Carlyle Hebert
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Art Eatman:
Over-penetration, for sure. But just think what you can do to a getaway car, with tracers! Or retaliation on a Drive-By!
, Art[/quote]
Damn you must be thinking like me! I keep 4 8rd clips handy for "just in case" and they are loaded one AP, one Tracer, one AP, one Tracer. I live in a semi-rural loaction so I dont worry too much about penetration. I figure if they are in a vehicle then a couple of AP's in the area of the gas tank and then a few tracers in the same area should get some interesting results. . Of course there will also be a few put in the passenger area of the vehicle too....that should also give some interesting results...........level 3 body armor or not. Hell if nothing else if it happens at night it will be pretty .
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Carlyle Hebert
Over-penetration, for sure. But just think what you can do to a getaway car, with tracers! Or retaliation on a Drive-By!
, Art[/quote]Damn you must be thinking like me! I keep 4 8rd clips handy for "just in case" and they are loaded one AP, one Tracer, one AP, one Tracer. I live in a semi-rural loaction so I dont worry too much about penetration. I figure if they are in a vehicle then a couple of AP's in the area of the gas tank and then a few tracers in the same area should get some interesting results.
. Of course there will also be a few put in the passenger area of the vehicle too....that should also give some interesting results...........level 3 body armor or not. Hell if nothing else if it happens at night it will be pretty .------------------
Carlyle Hebert
Most rifle rounds will give you "overpenetration"
.223, 7.62x39, .308 and .30-06 should penetrate a few layers of drywall easily.
If you are worried about "overpenetration" find a 9mm or .45ACP carbine.
The Auto Ordinance Thompson should work nice. Plus you can still get mags for it. Heavy though.
There are still AR-15s in 9mm out there also.
Orso
.223, 7.62x39, .308 and .30-06 should penetrate a few layers of drywall easily.
If you are worried about "overpenetration" find a 9mm or .45ACP carbine.
The Auto Ordinance Thompson should work nice. Plus you can still get mags for it. Heavy though.
There are still AR-15s in 9mm out there also.
Orso
I don't think that bullets made for varmints should be recomended as a possible solution to worries about over penetration in a home defense situation. Surely the manufacturer's themselves do not make any such recommendation and this idea is not tested in reality on any of the common building materials. In fact, I am not sure that any bullet is actually recommended for this purpose by any responsible manufacturer, industry group or testing laboratory.
In short, no one responsible is going to go to bat for someone who unfortunately shoots an innocent person in an adjoining room, building or outdoor space.
Perhaps the best thing that people who have thoughts in this direction could ever do is to carefully consider their own living quarters and carefully consider how many safe shots can actually be made with more than adequate, surely people free backstops. In some homes there may be a very few truely safe shots, but I think that most people will be truely appalled by the very few and very limited number of truely safe shots are actually at their disposal.
Draw your own varius conclusions as I am sure you will, but do not be naive by placing a false faith in what bullets will do after you have let them loose.
In short, no one responsible is going to go to bat for someone who unfortunately shoots an innocent person in an adjoining room, building or outdoor space.
Perhaps the best thing that people who have thoughts in this direction could ever do is to carefully consider their own living quarters and carefully consider how many safe shots can actually be made with more than adequate, surely people free backstops. In some homes there may be a very few truely safe shots, but I think that most people will be truely appalled by the very few and very limited number of truely safe shots are actually at their disposal.
Draw your own varius conclusions as I am sure you will, but do not be naive by placing a false faith in what bullets will do after you have let them loose.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Herodotus:
I don't think that bullets made for varmints should be recomended as a possible solution to worries about over penetration in a home defense situation. Surely the manufacturer's themselves do not make any such recommendation and this idea is not tested in reality on any of the common building materials. In fact, I am not sure that any bullet is actually recommended for this purpose by any responsible manufacturer, industry group or testing laboratory.
In short, no one responsible is going to go to bat for someone who unfortunately shoots an innocent person in an adjoining room, building or outdoor space.
Perhaps the best thing that people who have thoughts in this direction could ever do is to carefully consider their own living quarters and carefully consider how many safe shots can actually be made with more than adequate, surely people free backstops. In some homes there may be a very few truely safe shots, but I think that most people will be truely appalled by the very few and very limited number of truely safe shots are actually at their disposal.
Draw your own varius conclusions as I am sure you will, but do not be naive by placing a false faith in what bullets will do after you have let them loose.[/quote]
Actually Hornady's TAP ammo is marketed for this role...and TAP ammo is just V max or A max bullets, depending on the load, in a fancy package.
Quoteing from page 58 of Hornady's catalog about TAP ammo they state that it meets this criteria, "Reduced chance of collateral damage from over-penetration or richochet" They also have a report on the TAP product line, No. 9966 $15.00 and you should be able to order it by calling 800-338-3220.
I agree that planning your fields of fire before something happens is a good idea. I encourage people to do that for home defense and to construct safe backstops if needed for good defense.
But varmint bullets will reduce penetration problems, it can still happen but varmint bullets will really reduce the risk of over penetration. Though of course you might end up with not enough terminal penetration. You pay your money and you take your chances :/
[This message has been edited by Glamdring (edited August 05, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Glamdring (edited August 06, 2000).]
I don't think that bullets made for varmints should be recomended as a possible solution to worries about over penetration in a home defense situation. Surely the manufacturer's themselves do not make any such recommendation and this idea is not tested in reality on any of the common building materials. In fact, I am not sure that any bullet is actually recommended for this purpose by any responsible manufacturer, industry group or testing laboratory.
In short, no one responsible is going to go to bat for someone who unfortunately shoots an innocent person in an adjoining room, building or outdoor space.
Perhaps the best thing that people who have thoughts in this direction could ever do is to carefully consider their own living quarters and carefully consider how many safe shots can actually be made with more than adequate, surely people free backstops. In some homes there may be a very few truely safe shots, but I think that most people will be truely appalled by the very few and very limited number of truely safe shots are actually at their disposal.
Draw your own varius conclusions as I am sure you will, but do not be naive by placing a false faith in what bullets will do after you have let them loose.[/quote]
Actually Hornady's TAP ammo is marketed for this role...and TAP ammo is just V max or A max bullets, depending on the load, in a fancy package.
Quoteing from page 58 of Hornady's catalog about TAP ammo they state that it meets this criteria, "Reduced chance of collateral damage from over-penetration or richochet" They also have a report on the TAP product line, No. 9966 $15.00 and you should be able to order it by calling 800-338-3220.
I agree that planning your fields of fire before something happens is a good idea. I encourage people to do that for home defense and to construct safe backstops if needed for good defense.
But varmint bullets will reduce penetration problems, it can still happen but varmint bullets will really reduce the risk of over penetration. Though of course you might end up with not enough terminal penetration. You pay your money and you take your chances :/
[This message has been edited by Glamdring (edited August 05, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Glamdring (edited August 06, 2000).]
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Art Eatman:
Over-penetration, for sure. But just think what you can do to a getaway car, with tracers! Or retaliation on a Drive-By!
, Art[/quote]
Art,
I heard that the last drive-by in your neighborhood was by a guy on a burro with a single shot .410! Is that true?
David
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If your looking to government for the solution, you obviously don't understand the problem.
Over-penetration, for sure. But just think what you can do to a getaway car, with tracers! Or retaliation on a Drive-By!
, Art[/quote]Art,
I heard that the last drive-by in your neighborhood was by a guy on a burro with a single shot .410! Is that true?
David
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If your looking to government for the solution, you obviously don't understand the problem.