Full auto 1911 . . . ?

P

Prof Young

New member
So as I'm getting to know my new Rock Island 1911 I recall a tale my father told me. He served in WWII as an MP in Europe and then the Philippines. I remember him telling me that as they were learning to use their hand guns, which I assume were 1911 in 45acp, that one time he pulled the trigger and it turned full auto on him. Fortunately he had a good grip on the gun. I can only assume that, if this really happened . . . they gave him a new gun. My dad loved to tell stories, but the ones he told about his own life were usually true.

Could something go wrong with an army issued 1911 that would make it jump to full auto?

Live well, be safe
Prof Young
 
It's remotely possible that a worn, weak or broken part could have caused an internal problem at would allow the gun to "jar off" repeatedly in uncontrolled FA fire.

I have never seen such an accident personally,

BTW: Old myths have circulated for years that "filing off" the disconnector will make a 1911 FA. This is not true, as the hammer merely follows the slide forward and doesn't impart enough force to overcome the inertia of the firing pin.

If your dad's story is true, I'm going to say that there was a weak or broken sear spring that allowed the sear to release the hammer (by a "jar off") when the slide went into battery. That is the only way I can conceive of a 1911 going FA, and your dad would have had to have been holding the trigger, otherwise the hammer would have fallen to half cock.

I have a neighbor who has a manufacturing SOT and sponsors local machine gun shoots. One of his "creations" was a small device that allows a 1911 to be select fire. I watched it being shot, and, to be honest, I can assure you there is no benefit to a 1911 in FA other than fun.:D
 
Stuck firing pin, jammed forward, could do it.
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Unlikely, as the firing pin would interfere with the base of the cartridge as the breech face picked it up out of the mag. Remember, the round slides up against the face of the breech as it is forced up out of the mag. Also germane is the fact that the 1911 does not have a recessed breech face.

Note that I said unlikely, as it could be possible if the firing pin were stuck out only a bit, enough to allow the cartridge to rise and chamber without fouling the round on the pin. The protruding pin would then detonate the primer as in a blowback sub machine gun. In this case, it would not have been necessary for your dad to be holding the trigger as the firing pin, if it was stuck tight enough. would detonated each round until he gun was empty.
 
BTW: Old myths have circulated for years that "filing off" the disconnector will make a 1911 FA. This is not true, as the hammer merely follows the slide forward and doesn't impart enough force to overcome the inertia of the firing pin.
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While true, in theory, I have seen that concept proven false in the past - at least on other platforms where you'd never expect a primer to be set off by the hammer following the slide.

The first time was when the sear rounded-over on a GI bring-back from China (suspected Khyber Pass origin, but I've only been able to get that close in the last 3-6 years - for 50+ years, it was believed to be a Chinese issue firearm). It's a blow-back .32 ACP with the weakest hammer spring I've ever seen. You can watch the hammer fall on this thing. Add to it the fact that the geometry is all wrong, and you'd never expect a hammer-following incident to set off a primer.
Yet, when my grandfather pulled the trigger on a fresh magazine about 20 years ago, it ran away. Straight full-auto and no stopping it until the ammunition was exhausted.
(I'll try to get a photo, or the actual handgun, soon. I need to go stack some firewood for him, anyway.)


The second time, was a Browning Buckmark with a bad disconnector/trigger link. Hammer followed slide. Random burst fire resulted. Three-shot burst. Five-shot burst. Two-shot burst. Whatever the disconnector felt like allowing, before doing its job again. And, it should be noted, occasionally the hammer would follow the slide but fail to set off the primer.
Many people have tried to illegally modify Buckmarks to make them run full-auto - generally unsuccessfully. But, that one (a Silhouette model) would pump all kinds of lead out, fairly predictably, until the disconnector got replaced.


In a 1911, you'd have to have quite a few problems, for the hammer to be able to follow the slide without getting stopped short. ...But it is possible.
 
The first time was when the sear rounded-over on a GI bring-back from China (suspected Khyber Pass origin, but I've only been able to get that close in the last 3-6 years - for 50+ years, it was believed to be a Chinese issue firearm). It's a blow-back .32 ACP with the weakest hammer spring I've ever seen. You can watch the hammer fall on this thing. Add to it the fact that the geometry is all wrong, and you'd never expect a hammer-following incident to set off a primer.
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It wasn't a Vietnam jungle 1911 was it? Of course, Chinese one horse blacksmith shops were capable of almost anything.

And since the OP mentioned the Philippines, you should see some of the out of the way "gunsmith" shops there. Some interesting stuff comes out, and the government can't seem to find those little shops.

Some years back I had a mini collection of Chinese (alleged) Browning 1900 copies, one of which was chambered for .30 Mauser (it was physically larger than the others). The clever way the "craftsman" got around the pressure in a blowback was to have a tapered bore, with the bullet contacting the rifling in only the last inch or so from the muzzle.
 
A local guy had one with too little sear engagement or too little sear spring or both and it ran away with him. Fun in the short run, no tactical application, not legal even though by accident.
 
A worn sear/disconnect or weak sear/disconnect leaf spring will cause it. I bought a used LW Commander several years ago that emptied itself of the first mag I put through it. Liked to peed down me leg.
 
It is mostly due to insufficient or negative engagement between the sear and hammer notch. Too much a trigger job perhaps.

-TL
 
I can assure you there is no benefit to a 1911 in FA other than fun.
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Perhaps not with JUST a 1911 in FA, but what about one with a butt-stock and a 7" or 8" barrel? If there's STILL no benefit other than fun, at least now, we have MORE fun! :D
 
Perhaps not with JUST a 1911 in FA, but what about one with a butt-stock and a 7" or 8" barrel? If there's STILL no benefit other than fun, at least now, we have MORE fun!
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True dat, but, sadly it did not have a stock. Another guy showed up with a modified Glock and was shooting it with one of the aftermarket 100 round (I think) drums. (Or maybe it was 50; I don't remember). Anyway, that was fun to watch, too, but no stock, either.

I mentioned in a prior thread that, when I was working at the gun store in Miami in the 80s, there was an Argentine guy also working there who had been an armorer for the Argentine Army before emigrating. He showed me a little device for the Browning Hi-Power that they had developed for use in their FNs and FMs.

Other than to say it was a complete drop in part with no mods to the gun, "further, affiant sayeth not." I do have to say it was completely impractical to shoot without the stock, and I don't know that the Argentines ever had slotted Hi-Powers. (And no, I don't have the device, and no, I don't know whatever happened to the guy.)
 
Way back in the 60's my dad I were at a indoor range here in SoCal.
A young guy came in bragging about his new browning high power and his do-it-yourself trigger job.
He load up a 15 round mag.........................aimed and pulled the trigger!
fifteen rounds went downrange on one pull pf the trigger.:eek:
Range master made him clean up his stuff, took him by the arm, escorted him out the door and told him don't ever come back.:rolleyes:

Motto: don't do trigger jobs, if you don't know what the he!! your doing!:D
 
I had an uncle who during WWII was almost killed by a buddy that was "fixing" his 1911. It went full auto and almost took my uncle's head off. My uncle wasn't much of a gun fan after that.
 
All

I was in the Marines from 1975-1979. Once in '77, we went to the range to qualify with our 1911's. At first fire, a guy 3 places down from me, went full auto when we began to fire.
All our pistols were Vietnam and Korea Vets...some were older.
We were told the sear was worn, and the disconnector had broken to cause full auto.
Needless to say, the armorers were tasked to go through all pistols to make sure they were fit to be issued.
As wonderful as the 1911 is, unfortunately it will not last forever. Who knows how many rounds went through these things...what conditions they must have seen.
Be safe guys. Take care of those babies.
 
I saw one 40+ years ago at a military range in Colorado. The 1911 in question had extensive work as it was a target gun used by the team. IIRC, the disconnector was at least part of the problem. That's the part that prevents firing pin fall as the slide returns to battery position. As the gun also had sear and trigger work, they were suspected as well. This is one reason that match grade 1911's at Camp Perry must lift a 4.5 lb trigger pull weight, IIRC. Any "Bullseye" shooters here, feel free to correct me.

My personal procedure when examining a potential buy on any 1911 is to test the various safety features. Grip safety, thumb safety, out of battery, and disconnector (allow the slide to close while continuing to hold the trigger back - the hammer should not fall in this condition).

For a full run down on this part as well as a discussion of all the safety, check out Jerry Kuhnhausen's excellent two-volume work on the 1911. His shop manual series are the go-to sources for any gunsmithing chore with military and some civilian hand guns.

HTH's Rod
 
I recall an article in Rifleman where they were talking about the first time a Thompson SMG had been used against someone and it also listed information about a select fire 1911. If they could do it then why not now?
 
It wasn't a Vietnam jungle 1911 was it? Of course, Chinese one horse blacksmith shops were capable of almost anything.
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Nope.

It's a fairly small pistol, pretty similar in overall appearance (and markings) to this guy: Chinese "Mauser / Browning / FN" pistol ...And this guy: Another Chinese "Mauser".

A few people that have tried to deeply research these Chinese "Mausers" have contacted the Belgian proof houses, or historical associations representing them, to see if the proof marks are real. All of the proof houses reply with an unequivocal "no" (no real surprise) and a few have elaborated that some of the faked proof markings have been traced to the Khyber Pass area, after being found on many other forgeries.

About five years ago, I was doing what research I could and came across a gentleman on a collector's forum that spent 15+ years digging for the truth. He has an example identical to the pistol in my family. In 2000, he was actually able to trace his pistol back to Pakistan. So, it definitely supports the Khyber Pass leads. (Even though he imported his from France in the '80s.) He could only come up with two known examples of the "model" that he had, at the time.
 
After doing your home trigger jobs and other repairs take the advise of my Armorer Sgt who told me "only place two rounds in the magazine for your initial test firing". That way any doubling of the pistol will be controlled (and of course you and your red face can go back and repair it).
 
IbMikey said:
That way any doubling of the pistol will be controlled (and of course you and your red face can go back and repair it).
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That's what I've always done (and fortunately, I've never seen any doubling). No way would I want to find out what happens if my gun fires 9 full-spec 10mm rounds in about a second ... who knows where that muzzle would be pointing on the 9th shot.

Also, beware that probably the most dangerous possibility of doubling or full-auto is not when intentionally firing a round ... it's when you slingshot (or slide-release) the slide to chamber the first round in a mag. To guarantee that that doesn't happen, you need to EITHER insure that you don't compress the grip lever (even slightly), OR (with the slide locked back) completely pull the trigger and insure that you hold it all the way AFT during the entire slingshotting operation. The latter operation is called a "bulls eye reload" ... it prevents firing because it prevents the trigger from resetting until after the slide has slammed home.

As far as doubling when you intentionally fire a round, if you are careful to pull the trigger all the way aft (instead of "slapping" it), the trigger will not have reset when the slide slams home, and it won't fire until the trigger is released and puled again. (The above comments apply to the most common cause of doubling, due to inertial trigger pull when the disconnector/trigger leaf of the sear spring is set very light. Other causes, like incorrect sear/hammer engagement, or if the sear leaf of the sear spring being set too light, can cause doubling or full-auto even without the trigger releasing the hammer.)
 
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