from a recent Playboy via www.reason.com

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Unreasonable Searches and Seizures
The rising use of SWAT teams is bad, but it's about to get worse. Radley Balko (12/13)


Readers might find the article of interest
 
Seems like all these botched swat raids involve pot. Maybe its time the country looked into its views on drugs. Seems to me a lot of people out there are law abiding citizens other than a love afair with that green plant. Pitty the danger they face for something so silly.
 
The Govt is raiding pot dealers.

Meanwhile, violent criminals are going free becuase of prision over crowding. Doctors are prescribing "Speed" and other narcotics to children(as in under 18) if you ask me something is out of whack. Pot kills. So does cigarette smoke. I don't see any one rushing to ban that. Whoops spoke to soon. At least in a communist nation we don't have the govt. telling us what we can and can't eat,drink or smoke.

Aw what the hell do I know? I'm just an old cow farmer.
Shotgun
 
The only part that's not correct is the "pot kills" line. It just doesn't. Any addiction medicine specialist who sees a lot of pot users (pot users are also mostly alcoholics which is *cough* legal) can tell you that pot causes chronic bronchitis but NOT the cardio vascular damage that Marlboros do.


Not according to these folks:

"Even infrequent abuse can cause burning and stinging of the mouth and throat, often accompanied by a heavy cough. Someone who smokes marijuana regularly may have many of the same respiratory problems that tobacco smokers do, such as daily cough and phlegm production, more frequent acute chest illness, a heightened risk of lung infections, and a greater tendency to obstructed airways9. Smoking marijuana possibly increases the likelihood of developing cancer of the head or neck. A study comparing 173 cancer patients and 176 healthy individuals produced evidence that marijuana smoking doubled or tripled the risk of these cancers10.

Marijuana abuse also has the potential to promote cancer of the lungs and other parts of the respiratory tract because it contains irritants and carcinogens9,11. In fact, marijuana smoke contains 50 to 70 percent more carcinogenic hydrocarbons than does tobacco smoke12. It also induces high levels of an enzyme that converts certain hydrocarbons into their carcinogenic form—levels that may accelerate the changes that ultimately produce malignant cells13. Marijuana users usually inhale more deeply and hold their breath longer than tobacco smokers do, which increases the lungs' exposure to carcinogenic smoke. These facts suggest that, puff for puff, smoking marijuana may be more harmful to the lungs than smoking tobacco."

http://www.nida.nih.gov/Infofacts/marijuana.html

I don't smoke or drink, so I'll probably get hit by a bus.
 
Don,

NIDA.Gov's primary purpose is to justify the government's war on drugs.

IMO their credibilty is comparable to the CDC telling us that guns are a "public health issue"
The .Gov part should tell you all you need to know.
 
Note that cigatettes may contain any of 600 chemical additives, and that it is illegal to publish what they are or what any particular brand may contain. Think that may have anything to do with the carcinogenicity of cigarettes? Light a cigatette, take one puff, and set it down. It will continue to burn until all the tobacco is burned. This is because a chemical is added to keep it from going out (think that may have anything to do with the number of fires started by cigarettes?). Once lit it will be completely consumed, requiring lighting another one rather than letting it go out and finishing it later. This increases consumption and sales. In fact, a cigarette makes a reliable fuse for an explosive or incendiary device- a cigarette and a book of matches can start a fire with accurate timing. Ever notice that cigar will go out, and that keeping a pipe going requires some skill? Hm-m-m-m. Also, few people smoke 40-50 joints a day, and most pot smokers run the smoke through water which cools and filters it. For the record, I don't use cannabis. I don't lust on men either, but I don't want the govt out busting gays. The War on Drugs is simply the pretext by which the drooling masses are convinced that the Fedgov has to usurp our liberties to save society from drug crazed hippies and give the Sacred Shysters the opportunity to create the legal precedents by which this occurs.
 
hey don, while those fact and figures may be accurate (though since little independant testing is allowed by Uncle Sam the figures are questionable) those deaths are all related to smoke inhalation. breathing smoke is bad for you, no two ways about it. thing is there are numerous ways to intake marijuana that does not involce breathing smoke. vaporization and cooking are two of the best and those are completely safe because unlike nicotine, tobacco and ibuprofen, THC has too low of a toxicity level to kill a human being unless something drastic is done like having it injected into the bloodstream.

Pot does not kill any more than guns kill. Bullets tearing through flesh and organs kill, cancer caused by smoke kills but guns and pot don't do a damn thing but sit there and look oh so pretty.


Now onto the main point of the thread. Once again we're shown how one group of people telling another group of people what they can and cannot do with their own bodies takes away everyone's rights. The second amendment is supposed to be about freedom and supporting an infringement on one set of rights just to keep another is counterproductive as best and hypocrisy at worst.
 
"Even infrequent abuse can cause burning and stinging of the mouth and throat, often accompanied by a heavy cough.

I'd venture to say that these things are exaggerated in the infrequent user. Like cigarettes, the frequent user gets "used" to them. (What I REALLY think is: Oh, my God. burning and stinging of the mouth! The horror of it all! And a heavy cough! I might as well commit suicide knowing somebody somewhere has a heavy cough!)

Someone who smokes marijuana regularly may have many of the same respiratory problems that tobacco smokers do, such as daily cough and phlegm production, more frequent acute chest illness, a heightened risk of lung infections, and a greater tendency to obstructed airways9.

No doubt. They're purposely inhaling smoke.

Smoking marijuana possibly increases the likelihood of developing cancer of the head or neck. A study comparing 173 cancer patients and 176 healthy individuals produced evidence that marijuana smoking doubled or tripled the risk of these cancers10.

Again, they're purposely inhaling smoke.

Let's have a look at what smoke is. If you were to pump oxygen through either type of cigarette and smoke it slowly enough, presuming you didn't set yourself afire, you would be inhaling carbon dioxide and water and some oxides of nitrogen and sulfur. Remaining would be "ash", which, unlike the ash that does remain normally, would not contain any organics of any kind.

But if you were to heat either type of cigarette in an oxygen-free atmosphere, you would have pyrolysis. For the most part, the carbon would rearrange itself into charcoal, with some embedded nitrogen and sulfur, and ash (metal oxides, much of the oxygen coming from the original cellulose in the plant material you are pyrolizing).

Charcoal is sort of like layers of chicken wire made of carbon.

If you burn either type of cigarette in normal air, you get something in between. You get some carbon dioxide and carbon monoxide. You get vaporized organics that already exist. You get some ash. And you get smoke. Smoke is partially-constructed charcoal. Like cutting 4-5 hexagons out of the chickenwire. Chemicals based on carbon arranged in a hexagon are called aromatic hydrocarbons. When a few of these hexagons join up with common sides, they're called polyaromatic hydrocarbons. You might have seen these called PAHs. These are pretty nasty, and, for the most part, the carcinogenic part of smoke. They don't have to be converted to anything by any enzymes.

Smoke pot, you inhale PAH plus some THC and a plethora of stuff. Smoke cigarettes, you inhale PAH plus some nicotine and a plethora of stuff. Stand in the middle of a forest fire, same thing. Notice the similarity of the color of cigarette/pot smoke to the color of a car burning oil heavily? Wonder what that's about?

Both nicotine and THC can be made ingestible without the smoke, and with the greatest of ease.

So we can really drop the cancer argument right away.

Marijuana abuse also has the potential to promote cancer of the lungs and other parts of the respiratory tract because it contains irritants and carcinogens9,11.

Both of them contain the results of burning nitrogen and sulfur containing chemicals (which any plant is full of) in air, to name a few, sulfur dioxide, sulfur trioxide, ammonia, nitrous and nitric oxide. Most of those are fairly irritating.

In fact, marijuana smoke contains 50 to 70 percent more carcinogenic hydrocarbons than does tobacco smoke12.

I'm a little suspicious about that claim. However, since THC is nearly a PAH, I might buy it upon further investigation. But remember that we don't have to smoke either tobacco or pot to get the active ingredients.

It also induces high levels of an enzyme that converts certain hydrocarbons into their carcinogenic form—levels that may accelerate the changes that ultimately produce malignant cells13.

I'd like to see more about that, too. It's pretty easy to target a study looking for an influence on enzymes you think might support your thesis (pot is bad) and ignore influences on enzymes that might not be so supportive.

Marijuana users usually inhale more deeply and hold their breath longer than tobacco smokers do, which increases the lungs' exposure to carcinogenic smoke. These facts suggest that, puff for puff, smoking marijuana may be more harmful to the lungs than smoking tobacco."

Could be. But it could just as easily be that since THC is fat soluble and not so water soluble it hangs on the surfaces of the lung tissue longer and takes longer to get absorbed than nicotine does. Since it's close to being a PAH itself, that might mean it dissolves in deposited PAH, sort of acting as a detergent and allowing more PAH to be coughed up, which explains increased coughing and might lend itself to reduced risk for cancer over cigarette smoke.

-----

Ya see, there are lots of ways to twist even scientific results. And I suspect someone is trying to prove something, and there's a lot of ways to skin a cat.

Just look at the Partnership for a Drug Free America's TV ads. They presume teenagers are dolts, which they are not. Think about it. Kids COULD get high by drinking gasoline. But when was the last time you heard of THAT happening? The reason that the answer is "never" is that everybody, but everybody agrees that drinking gasoline is deadly. Kids see that, and they don't have to do the experiment themselves.

Kids also see that these commercials, and all those less-slick ones before them, are nothing but baloney. When parents agree with the commercials' messages, they become liars in the kid's eyes as well, leading to all sorts of chaos.

I just recently saw a newspaper article warning that kids are starting to drink cough syrup containing dextromethorphan to get high. Guess what? This phemomenon is at least 6 years old. It isn't news.

For at least 6 years, kids have been downing dextromethorphan cough syrups or pills to get high because it's legal to buy and pot isn't. Unfortunately, cough syrup isn't cough syrup isn't cough syrup. There's different stuff in each type. Overuse the wrong type (the only way to get high is to use much more than the recommended dose) and you permanently destroy your liver or have an instant heart attack.

Don't kid yourself (no pun intended). This isn't "for the children". What it is is a way to snooker the unsuspecting public into giving up their constitutional rights, and it's worked like a charm.
 
So? Vape it. Get a Volcano.

As for the cops in the picture in the article- is it me, or does it look like they really, really enjoy their toroid pastries?
 
Invention...

Actually, you can't drop the cancer arguement right away. From reading that post, you have so many ifs a rationalizations to water down the truth.
When you smoke pot, you inhale those chemical in CONCENTRATED form. It puts you in an altered state a.k.a. intoxication. Damage has started in accelerated form. People have this crazy idea that it does no harm, doesn't do any more than cigaretts, etc. That is just a bunch of B.S. People come off a high from meth and sobers up appearing normal, too. But the damage in the brain has been done. Just because you don't see it or feel it now, doesn't mean it doesn't cause cancer. When you meet your Maker, which I hope is a long time from now, tell my father of your findings. You two will have a long talk. I mean no disrespect to you and you obviosly have your right to opine. But this is a touchy subject with me in case you didn't sense that.

Although I do agree to a point about there's other pressing issues law enforcement should be doing, but the line has to be drawn in the sand somewhere. Pot is illegal. You become a criminal if you involve yourself with it whether you like it or not. I believe that pot use usually leads to other more addictive or harder drugs(another illegal activity). You can say "alcohol leads to intoxication, so why is it legal and pot isn't?" My reply is this: Don't use "bad behavior to justify another bad behavior".
 
Pot is illegal. You become a criminal if you involve yourself with it whether you like it or not. I believe that pot use usually leads to other more addictive or harder drugs(another illegal activity). You can say "alcohol leads to intoxication, so why is it legal and pot isn't?" My reply is this: Don't use "bad behavior to justify another bad behavior".

Unregistered NFA weapons are illegal. You become a criminal if you accidentally cut your shotgun barrel 1/4" too short whether you like it or not. I believe that owning guns usually leads to criminal activity. You can say "criminals break the law, so why restrict law abiding citizens?" My reply is this: Don't use "bad behavior to justify another bad behavior".

Game, set, match.
 
Actually, you can't drop the cancer arguement right away. From reading that post, you have so many ifs a rationalizations to water down the truth.

What "truth"? Results of science done by agencies desiring particular outcomes?

When you smoke pot, you inhale those chemical in CONCENTRATED form.

But you inhale cigarette smoke mixed with enormous amounts of air, right?

It puts you in an altered state a.k.a. intoxication.

Which does nobody any harm as long as you leave other people alone while intoxicated.

Damage has started in accelerated form. People have this crazy idea that it does no harm, doesn't do any more than cigaretts, etc. That is just a bunch of B.S. People come off a high from meth and sobers up appearing normal, too. But the damage in the brain has been done.

You have made an assertion. Prove it.

Just because you don't see it or feel it now, doesn't mean it doesn't cause cancer.

Just because you can't see or hear it now, doesn't mean there isn't an 8000 pound pink rabbit hiding just behind the house next door waiting to eat your children.

When you meet your Maker, which I hope is a long time from now, tell my father of your findings. You two will have a long talk.

This is another discussion. Suffice to say I have met my maker(s) and I know their names.

I mean no disrespect to you and you obviosly have your right to opine. But this is a touchy subject with me in case you didn't sense that.

I'm sorry for your loss, so I won't press you to elaborate unless you want to.

Although I do agree to a point about there's other pressing issues law enforcement should be doing, but the line has to be drawn in the sand somewhere.

How bout let's draw it where Mr. User's actions start to directly affect Mr. Victim?

Pot is illegal.

Due to unfounded hysteria fueled by politician's need for a whipping boy.

You become a criminal if you involve yourself with it whether you like it or not.

Only because of the above-mentioned hysteria, and not for any other solid reason.

I believe that pot use usually leads to other more addictive or harder drugs(another illegal activity).

And I believe cigarette smoking leads to drinking, or at least they go together. Both your statement and mine take a lot of fact-twisting to prove.

You can say "alcohol leads to intoxication, so why is it legal and pot isn't?" My reply is this: Don't use "bad behavior to justify another bad behavior".

Consistency would go a long way toward convincing teenagers that we aren't BSing them about whatever real dangers there actually are related to drugs, nicotine, and alcohol.

Let me ask you something. How many people do you know personally who've died from drugs? Over your whole lifetime? I know one. He was a heavy pot smoker (and I suspect dealer) in high school 30 years ago. The cause of his death was a large gash in the back of his head made by a blunt object. If pot directly did that, I want to see the video. No, pot did not do it. The illegality of pot did it. He was probably murdered by rivals. But that's it. One.

How many do you know who've died from alcohol or smoking? I count four without even searching my memory, and 3 of them were in my own family.

They didn't die dramatically (and that's what it is, drama) by jumping out a window thinking they could fly. They died choking, moaning, coughing, gasping for air, and bleeding in hospital beds over periods of many hours.

On a personal level, pot is a non-issue for me. I've had chronic bronchitis since I was a grade-schooler, and my first try of it resulted in an aggravating cough for a whole week. It wasn't worth the annoyance. Back then I tried a few other things, but wasn't stupid enough to swallow handfuls of unknown pills or various color.

I discovered something on my very own about drugs. They eat your time. The world's a competitive place. If you're going to go anywhere in life, you don't really have the time to use and recover from drugs.

This is what the Partnership for a Drug Free America should be telling kids. And it's not a sexy message that a sound bite can convey. Parents need to be explaining this to their kids as well.

Back in the 3rd or 4th grade we had a class called "Health". Back then, nobody was much thinking about drugs. The textbook called caffeine, nicotine, and alcohol "time wasters". That was one of the most profound and correct statements I have ever read. Because that is exactly what drugs are.

Some people are better at managing their time than others. These people should not be told what they can ingest and not ingest. Those not so good at time management should be pounded with the message that one day they'll be 50 or 60 and whatever they do that wastes their time will catch up to them, and they can't go back.

If the money spent on enforcing Prohibition II (which doesn't seem to be doing anything) were put into that sort of effort, drugs would drop off the radar screen as a problem.

And we might still have a 4th amendment.
 
I discovered something on my very own about drugs. They eat your time. The world's a competitive place. If you're going to go anywhere in life, you don't really have the time to use and recover from drugs.

This is what the Partnership for a Drug Free America should be telling kids. And it's not a sexy message that a sound bite can convey. Parents need to be explaining this to their kids as well.

Back in the 3rd or 4th grade we had a class called "Health". Back then, nobody was much thinking about drugs. The textbook called caffeine, nicotine, and alcohol "time wasters". That was one of the most profound and correct statements I have ever read. Because that is exactly what drugs are.

Some people are better at managing their time than others. These people should not be told what they can ingest and not ingest. Those not so good at time management should be pounded with the message that one day they'll be 50 or 60 and whatever they do that wastes their time will catch up to them, and they can't go back.

Quoted For Truth.
 
lethality of pot

ShotGun Minister,

May I gently refer you here http://www.medicalcannabis.com/marijuana_myths.htm
where you'll find that there has NEVER been a recorded marijuana overdoes leading to death. Te reason? You'd have to smoke 1500 lbs of pot in 15 minutes, and to cause that much combustion, there wouldn't be any oxygen left to breath, so you'd suffocate.

But it would be the fire's fault, not the pot's.

So what we really need is BOTH a rational discussion of pot laws AND a rational discussion about gun laws.

I define "rational" as getting rid of both sets of laws in favor of personal responsibility, but that's jut my opinion...

All the best,
Rob
 
For whatever it might be worth, the following is a copy of my Letter To The Editor, commenting on Marijuana Myth Gets Busted, 28Dec. edition of Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, facing the editorial page in B Section. Seems that some would have it, including Drug Czar John Walters, assuming he still occupies that position, that marijuana is a "gateway drug", the use of which leads to the use of "hard drugs". Research referenced in the above article proports to show that this is NOT the case, the writer claims. I cannot say which is the case, however my comments might interest some. Over the years, I've known some people who smoked "pot" as it was/is called. In-so-far as I know, NONE of the people I knew went beyond "pot".

Editor:

It's quite likely that national drug policy is badly in need of a significant overhaul, a process that some would describe as SCRAPPING. This is evidenced among other things by the following. Respecting the 2004 speech by "Drug Czar" John Walters, wherein he made mention of this "gateway drug" business, having heard this claim, did any in attendance reply with PROVE IT?

Even more interesting is the following. Such overhaul is not very likely any time soon. Two reasons for this come to mind, given that to a large extent, drug policy is based on legislation, and the antics of The Bureaucracy..

The repeal of legislation is tantamount to the admission by law makers that their past actions were in error. How many instances of such plain honesty, re even among the most emotionless of subjects, do you recall? Another aspect of what is plainly an error filled Drug Policy is the following. Massive bureaucratic empires, self perpetuating empires, have been built upon the above mentioned Drug Policy, empires that the throne sitters are loath to see curbed let alone eliminated.

The nation's drug policies might one day be rationalized, but given that blue is not my best color, I have no intentions of holding my breath while waiting for the arrival of that happy time.
 
our law enforcing and justice systems are wasting money and manpower chasing casual, adult, in-home pot smokers. many old laws need changing. the law makers keep adding laws, never removing any. I've lost a few good friends over the years who have destroyed themselves with booz.
 
Wow

So, I thought I might go on the net tonight to read and possibly learn something about firearms and shooting. Wow, I get all of this info on stinking drugs and smoking. I think I may have missed something! This is the firing line isn't it?
 
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