Frangible bullets and the gun rags press.

D

DocHolliday

New member
OK; I'll admit to watching the Day of The Jackal (original version, where he shoots the watermelon with a mercury bullet and it explodes in a zillion pieces) one time too many. Nope, haven't gone off the deep end yet and am not about to suggest that in the Miami FBI fiasco if the bullet which traversed the BG's arm on the way to the pulminary had been a frangible the results would have been better (No pulmonary aorta being severed but the BG's arm tendons turned to mush and consequently unable to return fire with accuracy). But I do have a reasonable(?) question. The argument against frangibles seems to be#1 They're expensive (true) #2 They penetrate less (well, less than .38 hollowpoint, which in turn penetrates less than hardball, which penetrates less than .357mag,etc.--still I'd hate to be standing behind the BG or an unfortunate drywall with any of those rounds, frangibles included. and#3 They're light and don't feed well in pistols( probably true even with today's guns but not completely sure). This is the argument in gun rags which appers to have lead to the middle of the road "conventional wisdom"i.e; " Frangibles do nothing better than a good hollowpoint and cost much more but they're good for home defense as they won't over penetrate(Really??) Therefore stick with hollowpoints". Now does anybody out there have any real world experience with frangibles? I'd appreciate your input. I know it's anecdotal and not "scientific" (After decades of M&S vs Dr.F,german goats, gelatin blocks and light vs heavy and slow charts we still seem to go with what feels right, don't we?) And Glasers,QuikShok,Mullins or MagSafe may not be available where you live, as The Constitution is often prohibited by local laws. . .But I would appreciate feedback. Hope this 'll be an interesting thread.
 
Doc my problem with frangibles is one of inaccuracy and expense.

First tried black tip Glasers (yes this was a while back - 20 years) and had decent accuracy, but shot waay below point of aim in my fixed sight .38.

Second try was with blue tip Glasers in the wifes .38 - poor accuracy, even lower POI. Too low for me. (like a foot at ten yards)

Last attempt was .44 Mag blue tip Glasers. Horrendous muzzle blast, muzzle flash and the bullets keyholed badly. Accuracy was moot at this point.

Had a shooting buddy try MPP pure copper hollow points in his .25 Beretta. Third case separation, we quit trying.

I have faith that the concept is valid, but the execution is flawed. I also do not want to spend the bucks that it would require to validate any of these rounds in my guns.

If I had some specific need, I'd probably try for a wheelgun with adjustable sights.

Giz
 
Prefragmented bulllets such as the Glasser are simply not suitable for self defence, using them is extremely hazardous to your health and well being.
 
Somebody smartly mentioned what hunters
use for sure kill on big game.

Anyway, hunters try to use bullets that will
NOT fragment and retain as much weight in one
piece as possible.

To be brief, those prefragmented bullets
are total junk. Hot JHP with relatively modest diameter of "hollow cavity", similar to what Fiocchi makes, is the way to go for both penetration and good expansion. They also feed very well, which is very important for self-defence purposes.
 
Appreciate the info. The accuracy factor was news to me. Is this a factor in most frangibles? As to "it's a good idea but.." you are obviously right. Any improvements out there in frangible design? What of Mullins or the new generation of MagSafe? Thanks
 
The accuracy and feed reliability of frangables have become a non-issue in recent years due to better design. They might shoot to a different point of impact, so you will need to sight in your ammo. But this is that is true of any ammo.

Frangables are a trade off. You are trading penetration against hard objects for an increase in wounding capability. The trash gun-writers like Shawn Dodson and Firearms Craptical might not like them, but they do work.
 
Hey Roscoe,

Not to get into a Dodson versus Marshall contest or anything, cause everbody has their treasured opinions, but where does your data come from that they work. Oris mentions that hunters don't use them, and animals are notorious for not being conditioned by television. They also generally don't care what they get shot with. Dr. Fackler once said that the time of death of someone shot with a glaser or similar round would be 3 days, and the cause of death, peritonitis.

With all due respect, what are you basing your opinion on?

By the way, I was a true believer in the Marshall/Sanow stuff until I found www.firearmstactical.com

I think the place for frangibles, if there is one, is for those situations where "misses", not overpenetration, are an issue, ala home defense. The problem is I don't know enough about them to trust them.

Some good opinions on the matter are Jim Cirillo's. In his book, he mentions creating the largest permanent cavity as extremely important, and thus favored "pin grabber" type ammunition. Mr. Cirillo based that on his experiences with gunfights.

I suppose this longwinded reply is simply asking the same thing as Doc, if they work, where?

Regards,

Chuck

"In order to solve the significant problems we face, we must rise to a different level of thinking than when we created them."
Albert Einstein
 
Hey, you guys seem to know your stuff, so tell me "which bullet will be effective against the BG, but won't rip through my sheetrock wall and kill my neighbor ?"

Seriously, my neighbors safety is a big concern. Not to mention, I'd hate to go to jail for killing an innocent person.
 
Pre-frags are good self defense loads when employed by a CHL holder or off duty LEO. They all shoot low, and always have, due to the high velocity. A 110gr .38 Spl JHP +P shoots lower than a 158gr LRN for the same reason. Glasers have always had an accuracy problem because of the way they are constructed, that may have changed, but MagSafes have a solid core that cannot shift and should stabilize fine. I am looking at the new Platinum Plus. Accuracy is outstanding, but I have not seen the x-rays of someone who has been shot with one yet.

Pre-frag 'exotic' ammo will turn to mush an area the size of a cantelope just under the surface of the skin. In a face to face encounters,if you were to turn 6" area to hamburger just under the surface of the skin, it is likely that you are going to destroy or severely damage some vital organs. In the 1970's the OKCPD carried some Glasers for T&E. In trunk shot suspects they found the wounds resulted in over a 90% fatality rate. Unfortunately the penetration of the round is not suitable for carry by uniformed officers.

You cannot compare what is used on animals with what to use on humans. Since animals are on all fours they have heavy muscle groups protecting vital organs unless you shoot them head on. Unusual for a hunter, but quite common in a self defense encounter.
It is HIGHLY unlikely that you will be involved, as a CHL holder, in a shootout at 10 yards. If you are that far away you are probably better off running away and getting to cover. Your self defense situations will be at under 10 feet and usually 3-5 feet.
 
The MagSafe SWAT ammo is specifically designed for the fastest breakup in walls and other building materials as opposed to the Defender versions by the same company. To quote Marshall/Sanow, "...the MagSafe SWAT is the least likely of any projectile to cause a downrange injury in the event of either a miss or marginal shot placement." Since this was published, however, Cor-Bon has released its Bee-Safe loadings. I believe I have read that it is also good in this aspect . The advice about an adjustable sight revolver being your best bet sounds logical. Also, the quote by Dr. Fackler may be misleading. It refered to a specific gunshot wound (gut shot). Hope that helps. :)
Concerning hunters use of deep penetrating bullets, here's a qoute by Elmer Keith.
"Few people today realize that a heavy revolver load or even a Super .38 Colt auto with full patch bullets will actually penetrate deeper in living game than will most modern American big game rifle loads with expanding bullets."
He wrote this after performing tests on imitation bear muscle with the .30/06, .270, .300, .375 magnums and the " British 400 Jeffery elephant cartridge with 400 grain soft point" among others.
The .44 Special loaded to magnum velocity with 250 grain lead semiwadcutters outpenetrated the above mentioned rifle cartridges when fired from a four inch barreled revolver.

[This message has been edited by JackNKoch (edited November 23, 1999).]
 
Thanks again, guys. Jogged my memory on a couple of things; I believe I read apropos of the german goats that frangibles showed a high oss but were dismissed them on the grounds that in the event of a disarm, an LEO shot with his own gun would be in more danger (??) ok. . .Also something about a wild boar stopped with one COM shot. I beleive the latter was from mullins ammo webpage, and the first in an article in Guns & Ammo by one of the Ascended Masters. (just because there's rumor&hype up the kazoo doesn't mean it ain't so).

Anyway, back to bipeds:
Have frangibles improved? Do they cycle ok despite many being lighter weight than gun mfg. spec minimum?
With all the nutty competition in our field (Hey,Joe! Let's make a .45 soo tiny and light that it floats on air if you can find it!) I'm guessing that some are significantly better? Or er. . .interesting? Oh well, maybe not.
Again, thank you all for your comments
 
JackNKoch,

With all my respect, do you really believe it? From your post:
-------------------------------------------
"Concerning hunters use of deep penetrating bullets, here's a qoute by Elmer Keith.
"Few people today realize that a heavy revolver load or even a Super .38 Colt auto with full patch bullets will actually penetrate deeper in living game than will most modern American big game rifle loads with expanding bullets."
He wrote this after performing tests on imitation bear muscle with the .30/06, .270, .300, .375 magnums and the " British 400 Jeffery elephant cartridge with 400 grain soft point" among others.
The .44 Special loaded to magnum velocity with 250 grain lead semiwadcutters outpenetrated the above mentioned rifle cartridges when fired from a four inch barreled revolver.
--------------------------------------------

Just one question: Did you ever shoot 30-06
or similar caliber rifle? I did. One time I shot 7 mm Rem. Mag. SOFT POINT bullet into
5/16" steel plate at 175 yards. It made a nice hole in it...I wish Mr. Keith could see
this hole, then his test results on penetration could be different.
 
Steel plate has almost no bearing. The rounds that will blow a hole in it are rather numerous. If your being attacked by a guy hiding in a 55 gallon oil drum, it may be important. Otherwise, the .223 will punch through 3/8 steel plate - but there's nothing but fragments on the other side.

Back to the subject - I still am very leery of the execution of the concept. I would have to run at least 25 or 30 rounds down range before I switched and most are too expensive for me to cheerfully do that.

Giz
 
some food for thought:

For a LONG time i hunted with remmington "bronze point" ammunition it's super accurate and my savage rifle seems to like this load (150 grain 2900 fps) the best. Its basically a hyrda shock for you rifle a deep hollow point with a bronze nose cap/pin which is supposed to "penetrate" thick hide and deliver controlled expansion at long range. I ADORED this load.

After a few years of hunting and making neck shots i finally zapped an antelope in the body and the amount of destruction was incredible... like hitting it with a 7mm magnum or 300 winchester. the bullet literally vaporizes or exits the body mass on a cluster of fragments the size of a golf ball. Well you can see how.. in hunting applications THAT'S TOO MUCH damage and you waste a lot of meat. I got discouraged with the cartridge. So I talk to my local gun smith cause i still have 2 boxes of 180 grain bronze points for elk. He says the heavier bullets DON'T open up as fast (2700fps).

So i said what the hell and took the heavier bullets to Wyoming for an antelope hunt. I Smacked a big uncommon doe at a range of 50 yards and knocked her deaeder than snot. Only problem was THERE WAS NO ENTRY OR EXIT WOUND. I'm still scratching my head as to how at 50 yards with a 180 grain bullet and a standing broadside shot there was NO penetration AT ALL. We set down to cape her and the underside of her hide was bloodshot down the left side of her body and SEVEN ribs were broken, Upon openining the body cavity ALL internal organs were intact and NO bullet fragments had entered the chest cavity. No clotted blood, no blasted bone fragments just seven broken ribs and a lump of bloody meat on the OUTSIDE of the animal.

Now I understand the shot was STILL LETHAL, and you really DON'T NEED much gun to zap a pronghorn.. but that bullet ABSOLUTELY FAILED. NO Penetration. I had been carrying those 180's as ELK LOADS for 4 years, believing them to be BETTER than my federal 165 btsp's. If that had been an ELK I had shot It VERY LIKELY would have gotten away.

I switched back to home rolled sierra 165 grain spbt "game king" bullets (all on FORMER Bronze point brass) and have NEVER had a 165 game king bullet FAIL to penetrate. I don't expect my deer elk and antelope to be hiding behind car doors and the like... but after that experience I doubt the bronze point would DO the job. You expect your hunting bullet to GO THROUGH your game animal so that you have a blood trail if it doesn't kill the game outright.

So what is BEST for two legged critters?? A high velocity frangible/wonderbullet that is NOT designed to penetrate ie a "varmint round" or a heavy for caliber penetrator that is EXPRESSLY designed to go all the way through a "hunting round".

After this experience.. I wondered if we DO worry too much about "overpenetration"

That doesn't mean I'm using a 44 magnum for home defense... but it also means I'm not buying fancy "beehive" rounds for my 45.

Maybe I'm comparing apples to oranges since rifle and pistol velocites are VASTLY different....

But I thought you all might like to hear the info.


Dr.Rob
 
Muscles: We all share the same concern; supposedly that was the original reason for frangibles. Gizmo&Roscoe: Thanks for bringing up the accuracy question pro&con. Jeff: could you let us know more about Platinum Plus? Chuck:What did Mr. Cirillo mean by "pin grabber" Hydrashocks? Better yet, don't tell me, I've wanted to order his videos for some time and here's one more reason (OK. Tell me, I'll buy them anyway). DR. Rob: You mean you shot a little Bambi? . . .Seriously Dr.Rob, saw a bumper sticker today that you might get a kick out of: "How much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck had a .45 to its head?".
Outstanding info, one and all. Now if I can remember my original Q#3: Do they feed well despite their light (sometimes beneath gun mfg specs)weight in semi autos? And any more real world--doesn't have to be gunfights, I'll take the firing range--experience. Thanks 'all.
 
DocH, the Platinum Plus load was discussed in an earlier thread, I will see if I can find it and edit this message with the location. The Pin Grabber was the competition version of the Law Grabber. It is a JHP with a zig-zag sawtooth lip around the cavity. It was made to dig into the plastic covering of a bowling pin in case the shot was not a square hit on the rounded surface, or it would dig into a bone for the same reason.
http://www.thefiringline.com:8080/forums/showthread.php?threadid=33010

[This message has been edited by Jeff OTMG (edited November 24, 1999).]
 
Doc,

Jim Cirllo''s reference to pin grabbers was a round that does not have a cone shape, rather it is flat like a wadcutter, but has saw teeth around the edges. My understanding is that it was originally designed for shooting bowling pins, because some rounds wouldn't take the pin down if it wasn't hit straight on, hence the name "pingrabber." Unfortunately, due to the design and autoloader specifications, the rounds only work in revolvers. He did however, load the first round of a .45 with one, and other rounds for the rest of the mag, and apparently during a shootout the results were devestating.

His theory for using them was that doctors often can't tell the difference between a .38 or a .45 wound trajectory, because the round design often "pushed" flesh out of the way instead of cutting and forming a large permanent cavity, leading to hemorraghic shock.

I'm still leery of these wonder rounds. I'll take a good Hydra-shock anyday.

Jack...you were right about the Fackler quote, that's what I get for quoting from memory. I'm still not sure his observation is invalid, though. One reason for the IWBA's recommendation of 12-18 inches is that the round might have to travel through an arm, clothing, or even...fat (can I still use that word in today's society?). Many of us in LE have seen the Officer Coates killing videotape, where a 350+or- pound good ole boy shoots him dead. In summary, the officer is doing a pat down, BG pulls a .25 or .32 (mousegun anyways) and shoots him in the chest. The officer is saved by his vest, falls to the ground, draws and fires 5 .357 rounds into the BG's torso. The BG goes down, the officer gets up, is calling for backup, and decides he needs cover. He turns to get behind his car, when the BG pops one more round at him. The round goes between the vest and arm, through the armpit, and severs the Aorta. Officer Coates dies, the suspect (shot 5 times in the chest) lives. There are no guarantees, but I doubt Glasers or Magsafe would have fared much better. I don't know enough about the shooting to say penetration was a factor in the BG not going down, but it does raise the ugly possibility.

Doc Rob's no penetration experience falls in line with another Cirillo experience from his book, where a subject surprised an officer and was shot 5(?) times in the face with a .38. The subject was only knocked unconscious.

A DEA guy I met once shot three rounds (9mm sorry, no further info)at close range through a car window during a buy/bust operation. The rounds shattered on the window, struck the subject in the head, and he was out of the hospital that night. I believe he did drop his gun though.

Anyways, it's just something to think about,

Chuck
 
Chuck & Jeff: Thanks for clarifying MrCirillo"s "pin grabber" So it's LEO only and doesn't work on semiauto? What's the closest civi version? Jeff: Enjoyed reading the Platinum thread. thanks again. Now this may not be an issue in revolvers but a 9mm that only weighs 60gr? How reliable would it feed? Chuck: 5 torso shots with a .357? Depressing. But doesn't it sound to you that the problem was missing the BG's vitals rather than lack of penetration? Check out Mr Rowe's current thread ".44 mag effects on people. Sobering. . .
 
Doc,

I'm not sure about the pin grabbers being LE only. Mr. Cirillo was working on a prototype of the round with a plastic cap, so that it would feed through semiautos. I guess that was a couple of years ago, and I haven't heard anything since.

I'm not sure about the .357's and whether or not they hit vitals. Part of the reason for deep penetration is that many of the major blood vessels lie relatively deep in the body, and the round may need to punch through bone, muscle, and fat to reach them and induce hemorraghic shock. Unfortunately, I just don't know how deep the rounds penetrated and what structures they hit/destroyed. If anyone does know, please let us know.

Chuck
 
Dr. Rob,
I was rereading an old June 1989 Guns&Ammo article that deal with the subject of "brush busting" calibers/loads. It got me thinking about your antelope story. Is it in anyway possible your bullet struck a twig or someother small obstacle before hitting the animal? If it did, it is quite possible the bullet traveled in a more or less straight line to your line of sight. However the bullet would have destablized and "keyholed" the target maybe allowing it to glance off the ribs which are hard and "greasy" with fat. Just a thought. Couldn't help but mention it as a possible theory. It was a very interesting test the author Mike Venturino performed.

[This message has been edited by JackNKoch (edited December 08, 1999).]
 
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