Frangible ammo question

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Dr Killdeer

New member
Have you guys had experience with frangible bullets? Do they really disintegrate on impact? Are they the supreme close quarter defensive bullets of choice?

I heard the guns that are issued to pilots are loaded with frangible ammo. Supposedly, they can deliver a devastating punch, but they won’t penetrate the skin of an aircraft.

Besides cost, what’s the down side of using frangible ammo for home defense? Hard bullets go through sheetrock like tissue paper, which makes them a poor choice in preventing collateral damage, if it ever came to that.

How do frangible bullets treat barrels? Do they present any cycling problems in 1911’s?

You can read a million pages about frangible ammo on the internet, but I want to hear the pros and cons from guys who have first hand experience.
 
I will give you my experience.

I don't like them! I have tried the Glazer type with small pellets. Here are my complaints:

-They shoot point of impact much different than normal loads. They are very expensive and it takes a fair amount of shooting (money) to get use to where they hit.

-They do not have consistent performance. Sometimes they can penetrate like a normal round and sometimes they do as advertised and shatter on impact.

My personal solution is to either use Gold Dot, or the new Hornady Critical defense. The Critical defense appears to do as advertised. It's not great for hard barriers, but it expands consistently in soft targets.

This is a thread I started on CD ammo.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=421524

How do frangible bullets treat barrels?
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They won't hurt your barrel.

Having said that, if you are very close range they are certainly going to do real damage to your target. They will work, but again I doubt the consistency.
 
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Supposedly, they can deliver a devastating punch, but they won’t penetrate the skin of an aircraft.
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Sorry, but no round can flaunt the laws of physics like that. The amount of energy to penetrate an aircraft skin is less that it takes to deliver a devastating punch to a human. All hype and marketing there.

They are designed to be used indoors at ranges so that lead contamination of the shooters is eliminated. That's both lead volatilized in the air as well as from ricochet. You can get copper frangible reloaded rounds from CTD inexpensively. In fact, they are among the least expensive they have (at least when I last looked).
 
At $2+ apiece, I seldom practice with them, except the 7.62x39 Glasers I picked up at dealer cost, 6 for $10. A 15 gallon heavy plastic pickle bucket filled with water will give you a memorable show.The plastic which is about 3/16" thick literally explodes outward, breaking into 15-20 pieces.The FBi did considerable testing on them about 20 years ago.Were exceptional unless your target was heavily clothed...
 
Frangible bullets are hype and have no real place for self defense. Stick with a good hollow point
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You are intitled to your opinion, but I disagree.

In certain situations, they are exactly what the doctor ordered. I am a member of the security ministry of my church and in that enviorment, they are perfect. In a scenario where you have multiple subjects in a confined location, frangibles are the ideal ammo. In the event that you need to engage a perp in a fire fight, you don't have to concern yourself with over-penetration and affecting an "innocent". I keep one magazine for my duty weapon, my XD40, loaded with "Safety Slugs" just for use within the sanctuary. I feel the same thing would apply in a apartment complex where over penetration could be an issue.

BTW, frangibles have no negative affects on the barrel, and I have experienced no problems with feeding or cycling in my XD40, service.
 
you don't have to concern yourself with over-penetration and affecting an "innocent".
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I will say one more time...I don't agree. There is test data out there that says many times frangible ammo does penetrate like normal HP stuff. Here is an old thread that gives some info. Lot more out there if you want to search. If you think it will not penetrate a house wall you may be in for a surprise.

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=155860
 
Flame on; Strasburg Tests, NIJ-RII testing, frangibles...

I'm sure a few forum members will swamp you with - posts about special purpose or "exotic" rounds. If you research the old Strasburg tests from the early 1990s they showed how large goats could be killed quickly with handgun calibers with the Magsafe rounds. R&D from the US DoJ's NIJ(national institute of justice), www.DoJ.gov , was used in the 1980s to show how older "blue" Glaser Safety Slugs could be used by sworn LE or the military to stop violent threats.
Other exotic handgun rounds have come & gone over the years. Some like the Hornady TAP, the Corbon PowRball, the Glaser Safety Slug, the Magsafe line(in calibers over .38spl) all have merit IMO. The ExtremeShockUSA rounds are not that great. The QC is less than great for the price.
Major brands and regular JHPs are better for most protection-duty uses but some exotic rounds can be used under special conditions.
 
Hey guys, I appreciate the scoop. After reading these posts and the links provided, my interest in frangibles has diminished somewhat.

I thought frangible bullets, if they worked as advertised, would be the last word in home defense ammo. Straitshooter has a similar scenario in mind. A round that will take out a single target in a confined area without danger of non combatants being hit by spent bullets.

My curiosity was based more on a home defense scenario. I use Gold Dots as my defensive ammo in the 45, but I thought perhaps a frangible bullet would be better for indoor use in a tight spot.

Madmag, you’re posts on CD ammo is impressive. I’ve given it considerable thought and I don’t believe it’s worth my effort to start all over again. That means shooting hundreds of rounds to get comfortable with a new bullet, when I already have one that’s effective, accurate and serves the purpose.

Incidentally Cougar, you said the aircraft rationale’ is pure fiction and frankly, I have no idea. I don’t know what kind of guns or caliber pilots are issued. But a quasi-expert at the club related a story about frangible bullets that were tested by the government for use in aircraft. Sort of an anti-hijacker bullet. He said they’re standard issue now. It makes sense, but that doesn’t make it true. It could be another "300 yard running shot on a 14 pointer with a 30-30" story.
 
My readings indicate frangibles do perform as stated.
But, some new myths have been created and for believers, no amount of evidence will change their minds.
As far as expensive is concerned, I just had to laugh. Unless you are shooting at bad guys several times a day, the expense is negligible. I have Glasers in my Redhawk and they have been there, unused for about ten years. But they are there ready if needed.
Read the literature of the various companies that produce pre-frag. Personally, I am comfortable with knowing the rounds I choose will not penetrate walls.
As for accuracy, just how accurate do you have to be at ten feet?
In most cases, if you shoot a bad guy at 50 yards, you will end up in prison.
 
You must refine your terminology.
There are two main types of frangible bullet.
The emphasis here seems to be on things like the Glaser, Magsafe, and Extreme Shock, bullets meant for self defense with limited penetration. They do work, search for Boarhunter's hog killing account on this board.
Their main disadvantages are a lack of penetration when wanted and high cost that discourages thorough testing.

The other type is a range bullet, meant to minimize spatter off of hard targets or indoor bullet traps shot at close range. You would not want to get shot with one, but it is not ideal for the defense role. Penetration is very shallow and the fragmentation is into powder. I have seen one type give very poor autopistol reliability, although I had a small sample of another brand that shot fine.

The bit about not shooting holes in a pressurized aircraft fuselage is urban legend and movie fiction. There is already plenty of air flow out of the cabin and an extra half inch hole is not going to make any difference. Control runs are duplicated if not triplicated. The risk is the same as in any crowd, overpenetration of a hijacker might hit a crewman or passenger. That can be minimized with a good regular hollowpoint. At one time the air marshalls were using .357 Sigs with Gold Dots.
 
...but they won’t penetrate the skin of an aircraft.
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I remember when I was issued my first .38 Special in the Air Force. We were told one of the reasons for its issue was that it would not penetrate the skin of an aircraft. I am sure I even repeated it several times.

It is not true. Or at least it was not true in the case at Loring AFB Maine, when a crew member was screwing around with his gun and shot a hole in the fuselage. :eek:

And it was not true of the 9mm the Air Force switched to at a later date. The same gun and ammo was issued to pilots/crew members, just as with the .38.

I remember reading a security report of a Security Policeman who emptied all six rounds from her revolver in to a car that tried to run her down (MacDill AFB, FL, I believe). The bullets never penetrated the windshield of the car. This incident did nothing to help stop the myth that the skin of an aircraft could not be penetrated with our duty weapons.
 
Dr Killdeer said:
I’ve given it considerable thought and I don’t believe it’s worth my effort to start all over again.
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I understand. But just for info, my experience is the CD ammo shoots just like any other ammo. So if you are hitting well with normal 230g stuff, you don't have to practice that much using CD ammo. I would assume same for the other calibers.
 
Hhmmm...I have a small supply of frangible rounds in several different calibers. Without going into specifics, I believe that such ammunition is quite effective for specific purposes, in specific venues. It's sad that this type of ammunition is so under-appreciated & so quickly dismissed by so many key-board commandos and their fellow-traveling water-jug physicists. [Just my opinion...& what'do'I know, I'm just a girl....;)]--Patrice
 
Patrice said:
It's sad that this type of ammunition is so under-appreciated & so quickly dismissed
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Not sure about quickly dismissed part. I spent a fair amount of money buying and then shooting Glazer ammo in .38 +P and .45ACP. I found the POI different than normal stuff and the performance was not consistent. But I never said it will not work. I just think there are better choices.

key-board commandos and their fellow-traveling water-jug physicists.
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That will probably not buy much here. I have been shooting more than 60 years, just a little before key-boards came along. Lots of others on the forum also have long experience...way past the key-board.:)
 
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AFAIK, the only kind of frangible bullets issued by the military were .30-'06, used in WWII for training bomber gunners in firing against real fighter planes. The fighters had light armor plating and the bullets, made of clay and graphite, broke up but left a black smudge so the gunner's skill could be assessed. Some were used for the same purpose in ground machinegunner training, firing against lightly armored trucks posing as "tanks."

As to a shot from inside an aircraft causing explosive decompression, even the Mythbusters exposed that old story as nonsense.

File under "military penetration myths":

We were told in basic training that the .30 ammunition we were using on the range [ball] was not real "combat ammunition" which had a black bullet [AP]. The "training ammo", a sergeant assured us, just went through the paper target then fell harmlessly to the ground. I have no idea where supposedly intelligent people in authority get such dumb ideas, but the armed services seem to have a lot of them.

Jim
 
It's sad that this type of ammunition is so under-appreciated & so quickly dismissed ...
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Maybe you should take it up with the FBI and law enforcement?

With all the time and money at their disposal if they worked they would be using them.

When you need to defend yourself against a block of ballistic gelatin let us now.

Guns stop by damaging things.

The things you need to damage are more than a few inches inside a body.

How deep do you think you need to penetrate to stop a 250 pound assailant?

The FBI thinks at least 18 inches (you may not be shooting from the front).
 
I will say one more time...I don't agree. There is test data out there that says many times frangible ammo does penetrate like normal HP stuff. Here is an old thread that gives some info. Lot more out there if you want to search. If you think it will not penetrate a house wall you may be in for a surprise.
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In the enviroment I noted, I still believe frangibles are a better alternative. I appreciate your opinion but I will continue to use them. Reasearch numbers can be manipulated to give whatever result you desire. I've done my own reserach and have formed my own opinion, and I stand by that decision.
 
Straightshooter629 said:
I appreciate your opinion but I will continue to use them. Research numbers can be manipulated to give whatever result you desire. I've done my own research and have formed my own opinion, and I stand by that decision.
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No problem. I respect your decision.
 
Planes, trains & automobiles...

I agree with a few of the posted remarks about frangible loads but I think other forum members are missing the point of the designed use(s).
Planes, trains and motor vehicles are not trying to actively kill you. The human beings inside or near them are! Some rounds like Glaser Safety Slugs or Magsafe may not punch through auto glass, building material or metal. That is why they are not in use or sold in the USA in large #s.
Where exotics or frangibles are of use is as a BUG(back-up gun) or 2nd gun where the chance of a close range or center-mass hit(like a violent felon or terrorist's unprotected chest-upper torso, ;)). I think it was gunwriter, author and veteran sworn LEO; Edwin Sanow who made this point years ago. To me, special purpose rounds are a smart choice for courts/malls/concert venues/medical centers/ships-dockyards/prisons. Areas that are densely populated or where the risk of a over-penetration/ricochet could be greater.
As posted, a lot of $$$ has been spent to R&D special purpose loads. They are not going to replace milspec FMJ or regular JHP rounds any time soon but do serve a purpose.
 
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