Frames Question
- Thread starter Smit
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lee n. field
New member
Frame size gets bigger as the letter progress up the alphabet.
J frame -- snub
K frame -- "medium frame"
N frame -- "large"
X frame -- "really, really large"
(I know there were I frame and L frame guns, historically. Others? Someone will be alone who knows.)
J frame -- snub
K frame -- "medium frame"
N frame -- "large"
X frame -- "really, really large"
(I know there were I frame and L frame guns, historically. Others? Someone will be alone who knows.)
The L frame, an intermediate frame, is in current production (e.g., the 686). The I frame was the .32 HE frame which was strengthened and lengthened to become the J frame.
The M frame was an exception to the rule that the size increases as the letters go up in the alphabet, being the tiny "Ladysmith" .22 revolver, even smaller than the I frame.
Jim
The M frame was an exception to the rule that the size increases as the letters go up in the alphabet, being the tiny "Ladysmith" .22 revolver, even smaller than the I frame.
Jim
Winchester_73
New member
There were 7 hand ejector frames total:
M - tiny aka smallest hand ejector, 7 shot 22 long only. For the Ladysmith which was discontinued in the 1920s.
I - small frame, 22lr 32 S&W long and 38 S&W. Precursor to J frame but cylinder was too short for 38 special. Hold 5 shots 38 cal and 6 shots of either 22 or 32.
J - small frame (upgraded I) similiar to I frame but was elongated to accept 38 special rounds. 22, 32, 38.
K - 38 aka medium frame. 32-20, 32 S&W long (scarce), 38 special, 357 magnum, 32 H&R magnum, 22lr, etc. S&Ws most common frame size.
L - medium frame (upgraded). Frame was strengthened in key areas for 357 magnums. Many have a full lug underneath the barrel and the forcing cone does not have the 6 o'clock thin spot that the K frame 357s do. Heavy for its size, it reduces recoil and is favorite of many.
N - large aka 44 frame. This frame was conceived to marry the 44 special to a hand ejector. Made in a variety of calibers, this frame had cals from 38 special to 44 magnum and much in between. This frame is big and heavy, but not very heavy compared to other 44 frame offerings such as Ruger or Colt. 6 round capacity
X - extra large - 460 S&W mag or 500 S&W mag. This is a 5 shot frame, and is enormous. Commonly found with a muzzle brake, most (if not all) are tapped for a scope, and many are used for handgun hunting or long range handgun shooting. The most powerful mass produced revolver in the world.
My collection has all of the frames. The Ladysmith was the toughest to get.
M - tiny aka smallest hand ejector, 7 shot 22 long only. For the Ladysmith which was discontinued in the 1920s.
I - small frame, 22lr 32 S&W long and 38 S&W. Precursor to J frame but cylinder was too short for 38 special. Hold 5 shots 38 cal and 6 shots of either 22 or 32.
J - small frame (upgraded I) similiar to I frame but was elongated to accept 38 special rounds. 22, 32, 38.
K - 38 aka medium frame. 32-20, 32 S&W long (scarce), 38 special, 357 magnum, 32 H&R magnum, 22lr, etc. S&Ws most common frame size.
L - medium frame (upgraded). Frame was strengthened in key areas for 357 magnums. Many have a full lug underneath the barrel and the forcing cone does not have the 6 o'clock thin spot that the K frame 357s do. Heavy for its size, it reduces recoil and is favorite of many.
N - large aka 44 frame. This frame was conceived to marry the 44 special to a hand ejector. Made in a variety of calibers, this frame had cals from 38 special to 44 magnum and much in between. This frame is big and heavy, but not very heavy compared to other 44 frame offerings such as Ruger or Colt. 6 round capacity
X - extra large - 460 S&W mag or 500 S&W mag. This is a 5 shot frame, and is enormous. Commonly found with a muzzle brake, most (if not all) are tapped for a scope, and many are used for handgun hunting or long range handgun shooting. The most powerful mass produced revolver in the world.
My collection has all of the frames. The Ladysmith was the toughest to get.
Here are all the current and past S&W frame sizes that I can think of (if I miss any, I'm sure that some of the knowledgeable S&W enthusiasts will be along to fill in any holes shortly).
M-Frame- the smallest of S&W frame sizes, the only guns ever produced on the M-frame were the 7-shot .22 Long Ladysmiths. Discontinued
I-Frame- the original small frame. I-frames are six-shot in .22 Long Rifle or .32 S&W Long and 5-Shot in .38 S&W. Discontinued
J-Frame- basically an I-Frame elongated to allow a long enough cylinder for .38 Special. As with the I-Frame, it's a six-shot in .32 and five-shot in .38 (it's also been made in .22 but cylinder capacity may vary). Discontinued
J-Frame Magnum- A J-Frame further elongated to allow for a .357 Magnum-length cylinder. Same cylinder capacity as regular J-Frame. Still in production in .22 Long Rifle, .22 Magnum, .327 Federal Magnum, .38 Special, and .357 Magnum
K-Frame- the original medium frame with a six-shot cylinder in most calibers. Largest calibers available on this frame are/were .38 Special and .357 Magnum. Still in production in .17 HMR .22 Long Rifle, .22 Magnum, and .38 Special.
L-Frame- enlarged medium frame designed to better hold up with copious use of full-power .357 Magnum with light bullets. Six or seven Shot capacity in .357 Magnum, six shot capacity in .40 S&W (Model 646), and five shot capacity in .44 Special (Models 696, 296, and 396). Still in production but only in .357 Magnum.
N-Frame- large frame originally designed for .44 Special, .44-40, .45 Long Colt and other similar cartridges. Six shot capacity in most calibers with some eight shot .357 Magnum variants available. Still in production in .357 Magnum, .41 Magnum, .44 Special, .44 Magnum, .45 ACP, and .45 Long Colt.
X-Frame- extra large frame for largest and most powerful cartridges. Available only in .500 S&W Magnum and .460 S&W Magnum. Five shot capacity in both calibers. Still in production
M-Frame- the smallest of S&W frame sizes, the only guns ever produced on the M-frame were the 7-shot .22 Long Ladysmiths. Discontinued
I-Frame- the original small frame. I-frames are six-shot in .22 Long Rifle or .32 S&W Long and 5-Shot in .38 S&W. Discontinued
J-Frame- basically an I-Frame elongated to allow a long enough cylinder for .38 Special. As with the I-Frame, it's a six-shot in .32 and five-shot in .38 (it's also been made in .22 but cylinder capacity may vary). Discontinued
J-Frame Magnum- A J-Frame further elongated to allow for a .357 Magnum-length cylinder. Same cylinder capacity as regular J-Frame. Still in production in .22 Long Rifle, .22 Magnum, .327 Federal Magnum, .38 Special, and .357 Magnum
K-Frame- the original medium frame with a six-shot cylinder in most calibers. Largest calibers available on this frame are/were .38 Special and .357 Magnum. Still in production in .17 HMR .22 Long Rifle, .22 Magnum, and .38 Special.
L-Frame- enlarged medium frame designed to better hold up with copious use of full-power .357 Magnum with light bullets. Six or seven Shot capacity in .357 Magnum, six shot capacity in .40 S&W (Model 646), and five shot capacity in .44 Special (Models 696, 296, and 396). Still in production but only in .357 Magnum.
N-Frame- large frame originally designed for .44 Special, .44-40, .45 Long Colt and other similar cartridges. Six shot capacity in most calibers with some eight shot .357 Magnum variants available. Still in production in .357 Magnum, .41 Magnum, .44 Special, .44 Magnum, .45 ACP, and .45 Long Colt.
X-Frame- extra large frame for largest and most powerful cartridges. Available only in .500 S&W Magnum and .460 S&W Magnum. Five shot capacity in both calibers. Still in production
carguychris
New member
If you're talking about swing-out cylinder S&Ws, there are 10 frame sizes:
http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/...58004_757843_757837_ProductDisplayErrorView_N
- M - Extra-small. Used only on the .22 Hand Ejector "Ladysmith", .22 Long 7-shot revolver, produced 1902-1921, dropped due to high breakage rates and excessive manufacturing costs.
- I - Compact or small. .22LR, .32 S&W Long, and .38 S&W (not Special!) only. Grip frame lengthened in 1952. Same grip frame size as J frame. Produced 1896-1962.
- J - Compact or small. Fundamentally the same as an I frame but lengthened to allow a .38Spl cartridge to fit. Introduced 1950, grip frame lengthened in 1952 along with I frame. In 1960-1962, all I frame models were replaced by otherwise identical J frame models. J frame lengthened a second time in 1996 to create "J Magnum" frame capable of taking .357Mag cartridge.
- Bodyguard .38 - New polymer-frame revolver introduced in 2011, similar in size to I/J but fundamentally different from all earlier S&W revolvers in numerous ways, grips not interchangeable with traditional I/J. AFAIK there is no publicly known alphabetical frame size designation for this gun.
- C - Experimental, used only for the Model 73, which split the difference between the J and K to create a smaller 6-shot .38Spl revolver to more directly compete with Colt Detective Special. Trials and test production did not go well, project was abandoned, most examples destroyed, only 2 complete revolvers sold. Historical footnote.
- K - Medium frame, the quintessential 6-shot .38Spl revolver.
Also produced in .22LR, .22WMR, .32 S&W Long, .38S&W, and .32-20 WCF. Produced 1899-present. - L - Medium-large frame, basically a K frame blown up slightly to better handle .357Mag power and recoil. Same grip frame size as K. Produced 1980-present.
- N - Large frame, designed for .44Spl cartridge, slightly longer across backstrap / trigger area than K/L. 6-shot .44 and .45-caliber S&Ws use this frame size, along with numerous .357s and a few now-uncommon .38Spl models. Produced 1907-present.
- Z - Governor .45/.410 revolver, introduced in 2011, basically a lengthened N frame with a K round butt grip frame.
- X - Extra-large, Model 500 and 460 XVR, purpose-built to handle ridiculous recoil but grip frame is the same as K/L/Z, "Mine Is Bigger Than Yours" frame.
http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/...58004_757843_757837_ProductDisplayErrorView_N
Last edited:
Winchester_73
New member
Ok TFL members - lets re-post the same info at least 3 more times to make this thread useful!
carguychris
New member
It's not my fault that others write faster than me. 
Besides, only I included the C frame, Bodyguard, and Governor!
OK, who's going to take on Colt frame sizes?
Besides, only I included the C frame, Bodyguard, and Governor!OK, who's going to take on Colt frame sizes?
Winchester_73
New member
For colt it would be the looksnicebutoverrated frames in size small, med and large. All discontinued because they were not what people call them today
jk guys
jk guys
Winchester_73
New member
For Colt, there was the E, I, V, J, MM, AA, D, and I think before the D you had the G and C. I have no idea about the small pocket positives and new police guns. IIRC the New Service / Shooting Masters didn't have a frame letter name either, just "large" frame I guess. Then you have the P for SAAs and the smaller SA 22s such as the scouts were another frame size.
If anyone can break them down really well, please do, it will make this thread that much better.
If anyone can break them down really well, please do, it will make this thread that much better.
Mike Irwin
Staff
There's another frame size that no one has mentioned -- the Improved I frame.
It was larger than the I frame in a number of critical dimensions, such as the frame window and grip, but still wasn't large enough to allow use of .38 Special ammunition.
It also introduced the coil main spring to Smith & Wesson handguns.
Another important consideration is that the frame sizes have never been absolutes. They have changed dimensionally over the years.
The .38 Special K frame is slightly different in critical areas from those K frames chambered in .357 Magnum.
Another interesting example are the early Model 12 Airweight K frames. While nominally a K frame Military and Police Hand Ejector, the grip was slightly narrower, making replacing the grip panels a gold plated SOB.
It was larger than the I frame in a number of critical dimensions, such as the frame window and grip, but still wasn't large enough to allow use of .38 Special ammunition.
It also introduced the coil main spring to Smith & Wesson handguns.
Another important consideration is that the frame sizes have never been absolutes. They have changed dimensionally over the years.
The .38 Special K frame is slightly different in critical areas from those K frames chambered in .357 Magnum.
Another interesting example are the early Model 12 Airweight K frames. While nominally a K frame Military and Police Hand Ejector, the grip was slightly narrower, making replacing the grip panels a gold plated SOB.
Does anyone know if there was any rationale behind the letters that S&W chose for their frame sizes? I can see that the more common frames tend to increase in size as you go along in the alphabet, and I can guess that they chose "X" to stand for "extra large," but why did they start where they did?
Mike Irwin
Staff
I don't think anyone has ever been able to answer that question. It seems to be lost in company history.
At the time they apparently started to be used, very early in hand ejector production, they were apparently used internally only for inventory purposes and to differentiate them from the break-top frames, which were numbered.
What a lot of people also don't know is that, at least internally, S&W has a different set of letter designations for the stainless steel guns.
I believe a stainless steel K-frame sized gun is called an E frame, while an N frame in stainless is a G frame.
At the time they apparently started to be used, very early in hand ejector production, they were apparently used internally only for inventory purposes and to differentiate them from the break-top frames, which were numbered.
What a lot of people also don't know is that, at least internally, S&W has a different set of letter designations for the stainless steel guns.
I believe a stainless steel K-frame sized gun is called an E frame, while an N frame in stainless is a G frame.
Winchester_73
New member
By the same token, they have different internal names for EACH main J frame variation such as: 36, 37 or 60 then 40/42, 38/49 and probably the model 50 as well. Then there are the newer ones 637, 642, 638, etc. I don't have the list in front of me at the moment.
seeker_two
New member
No one mentioned the S-frame.....
Mike Irwin
Staff
"No one mentioned the S-frame"
I think I know where this is going....
But, let's hear your description of the S frame.
I think I know where this is going....
But, let's hear your description of the S frame.
seeker_two
New member
OK, Mike.....IIRC, the S-frame was the prototype frame for the Model 29 .44Mag. When the 29 became successful, S&W changed all their N-frames to match the specs of the 29, and the S-frame designation disappeared....much like Ruger did with the Blackhawk frame, but less dramatic a difference....
Mike Irwin
Staff
OK, that's a little different, but still in the ballpark.
A lot of people say that the "S" frame was either the prototype OR the actual production frame for the early .44 Magnums.
Simply not true, as no one has ever uncovered any indication that Smith & Wesson ever used that nomenclature internally or externally.
It seems that the "S" frame lore cropped up when Smith & Wesson first introduced Model numbers. Apparently around the same time it became more common knowledge that S&W used letter designations internally for the frames.
Right at that time S&W was serial numbering both N frames and K frames with an "S" prefix, so it would seem that someone jumped to a conclusion that had no basis in fact.
The early .44 Magnums were dimensionally identical to the other N frame guns in production at the same time.
The heat treating was different to provide the necessary strength.
Even so, it wasn't enough, so eventually the .44 Magnum frame was slightly redesigned and strengthened. But that didn't happen until the middle to late 1960s.
Smith & Wesson has done the dimensions dance numerous times. At one point I believe there were three K frames in production, all slightly dimensionally different -- one for the .22s, one for the .38s, and a beefed up one for the .357s.
Not great from an inventory control standpoint, but when you batch manufacture frames, you can do that.
A lot of people say that the "S" frame was either the prototype OR the actual production frame for the early .44 Magnums.
Simply not true, as no one has ever uncovered any indication that Smith & Wesson ever used that nomenclature internally or externally.
It seems that the "S" frame lore cropped up when Smith & Wesson first introduced Model numbers. Apparently around the same time it became more common knowledge that S&W used letter designations internally for the frames.
Right at that time S&W was serial numbering both N frames and K frames with an "S" prefix, so it would seem that someone jumped to a conclusion that had no basis in fact.
The early .44 Magnums were dimensionally identical to the other N frame guns in production at the same time.
The heat treating was different to provide the necessary strength.
Even so, it wasn't enough, so eventually the .44 Magnum frame was slightly redesigned and strengthened. But that didn't happen until the middle to late 1960s.
Smith & Wesson has done the dimensions dance numerous times. At one point I believe there were three K frames in production, all slightly dimensionally different -- one for the .22s, one for the .38s, and a beefed up one for the .357s.
Not great from an inventory control standpoint, but when you batch manufacture frames, you can do that.
Jim Watson
New member
Wasn't the first use of an S on Smith & Wessons to denote the new hammer block designed in response to the Navy dropped gun discharge?