Four Dead in Brawl Over Barstool

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Four Dead in Brawl Over Barstool
Bullets Flew When Two Men Wanted Same Seat, Cops Say

Feb. 14, 2000
By Valerie Kalfrin

PERRIS, Calif. (APBnews.com) -- A 26-year-old man faces murder charges today for allegedly killing four people and wounding one other in a shootout over a barstool.
Arturo Sanchez, 26, of Perris is scheduled to be arraigned Tuesday on four charges of murder for allegedly being one of two men whose altercation turned violent Sunday inside El Dandy, a restaurant and bar in a Wilkerson Avenue strip mall.

The shootout is one of the worst in recent years in Riverside County, Perris police spokeswoman Sgt. Perri Feinstein-Portales said.

"It is unfortunate in today's society that people will carry concealed weapons and shoot each other over seats in a restaurant," Feinstein-Portales said. "It was just a silly argument."

Bystanders struck in melee

Police believe tempers flared when Sanchez and another man, Modesto Carrillo, 38, of Downey, wanted to sit on the same stool. The dispute escalated to the point where the men pulled out handguns and started shooting at each other, striking four bystanders in the process, Feinstein-Portales told APBnews.com.

"It was finished in a matter of seconds," she added.

Riverside County sheriff's deputies, who are under contract to help patrol this city of roughly 22,000 people about 24 miles north of San Bernardino, arrested Sanchez within minutes as he fled the restaurant on foot and tried to discard a handgun, police said. He is being held today at the Riverside County Jail.

Carrillo died of multiple gunshot wounds at the scene, as did Roberto Viramontes Vega, 25, of Moreno Valley, and Javier F. Zapeda-Machin, 23, of Hemet, police said.

Patricia Flores, 35, of Rialto later died at Riverside County Regional Medical Center, where the wounded man is being treated today. Feinstein-Portales did not have information on his identity or condition.
 
The guns made them do it...bad guns...bad!

We should lock people like this up and forget about them. Unfortunately, the anti lobby will definitly not forget.
 
Another reason to stay clear of these kinds of places. I've never been in a bar that I liked. I suppose that alcohol is a factor in most illegitimate handgun use. Does anyone know the statistics? I remember a fellow MP in Germany that was nice when he was sober, but like a crazy man when drunk. He once got drunk while on duty and it was scary. Some other MPs took his gun away from him.
 
This obviously didn't happen. It is a total and utter fabrication. We all know that it is all but impossible to get a CC permit in California, therefore these people would have had to have been carrying illegally. We all know that all you have to do to keep people from doing bad things is pass a law against it. Right? ;)
 
One thing stands out. The untrained unwashed type hit what he shot at. Also it was close range, low light and over in SECONDS. Wonder where I've heard that before. How could he do it without a Weaver stance and a flash sight picture?
 
I think they mostly hit bystanders in a very target-rich environment. Kill/wounded ratio is abnormal but that could mean that only heads and torsos were exposed above the bar.
 
This place is less than a mile from where I work. It isn't a place you want to be un-armed, or better yet, be at all at the time this occured. The only thing I can add to this was there were approx. 6 shots fired, so I'm told. One of the guy's I work with, his wife works for the sheriff's and is helping with the investigation. The sheriffs sub station is within walking distance from this bar. And a patrol car was near by when this happen, and got the guy as he was coming out.
Yeah, over a freakin' chair. ???????
 
I can't speak for the bystanders, but as far as the moron who was willing to duel over a barstool and died in the process, hey. It's called natural selection. A few hundred thousand more instances like this, and we'll be a polite, intelligent society.


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*quack*
 
pluspinc:

I'm sure if we're willing to enroll in one of your classes (for a modest fee, of course) you'll be happy to enlighten us.

Mike
 
Mike. Please list who is doing it for free.
S&W? Thunder Ranch? Didn't know such things were charitable ventures and tax deductible.
Silly me for thinking I could get away with charging $75 with free lifetime reattendance and free legal research via paralegal and a law firm. Back to the paper route I guess.
 
pluspinc:

I know they're not doing it for free and their prices are what they are. I just don't think that there is any one, correct answer.

The case we just read at the top of this post. Yeah, he probably wasn't trained, but then maybe he was. Let's not assume that just because he's Hispanic and all the named victims have Hispanic names...that doesn't automatically qualify them as an "...untrained unwashed type...". Bottomline, maybe he was an IDPA Expert classified shooter and a Gunsite and TR grad...most likely, he just got lucky. The stupidity of the incident speaks for itself.

IMHO, people should be less concerned about the brand of weapon they shoot, the design/brand of the bullet (assuming a baseline of 9mm/38 Special) and more concerned about shot placement, tactics and technique. Practice in a venue that induces stress (IDPA/IPSC/NTI, I really don't care) and that's about as good as it gets short of participating in a gunfight and surviving. And no, I really don't buy the "muscle memory" theory as such...I know that muscles don't have memories. All I do know is that the more you practice a technique, the better you will get, period. What causes that phenomena is of no interest to me.

Mike



[This message has been edited by Mike Spight (edited February 16, 2000).]
 
Well, it reminds me of the social crisis going on a few years back. You know, when one brand or model of shoe was the one to kill for. Yeah, the kids ?? were killing themselves to confiscate the victims shoes. That way, they more more closely emulate their sports hero, and bolster their club image.

Put too many rats in the same cage, and what happens? Everytime there is a cleanout fight to thin out the ranks.

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The most foolish mistake we could make would be to allow the subjected people to carry arms; history shows that all conquerers who have allowed their subjected people to carry arms have prepared their own fall.
Adolf Hitler

[This message has been edited by Donny (edited February 16, 2000).]
 
At least they could have done is fight over a chick!

Several years ago apree' skiing at a very popular Colorado ski resort, I was standing in a crowded club late one evening. The later it got, the more crowded it got. Lots of college kids were there on spring break, and doing some heavy drinking. Being the people watcher I am, I noticed several people dancing in the middle of the dance floor, each holding a cocktail glass or a beer bottle.

The testosterone was so thick in the air that night, you could have cut it with a knife. I watched as two guys squared off in some barbaric ritual of dominance over a cute but very intoxicated co-ed. Like two bull elks in the heat of rut, these guys began a pushing session that quickly escalated into a brawl. The next thing I saw was one guy with his cocktail glass cocked back in the throwing position. I stood behind a support column since I was potentially in the line of fire. The guy hurled the glass hard which struck his opponent directly in the middle of his forehead, causing a huge gash, sending blood in an explosive arch.

I immediately exited the establishment, shaking my head...thinking what would have happened had one or more of these drunk punks had a gun. I never went back in there again.

I think the moral of the story is to keep out of bars where people with no self-control are allowed ample opportunity to escalate adolescent intoxication into a fight for dominance over the opposite sex (or bar stools).
 
On the extremely rare occasion that I drink at a bar, it's a classy bar that doesn't allow its patrons to get schnockered, thereby losing their judgement. Oh, sure, I learned the hard way. My elbow still bothers me from the final bar squabble. Stupid, stupid, stupid. But I was younger then (and he was threatening a lady...).

If you have to patronize a dive, make sure you're within close proximity to the bouncer, at least. Even if he mistakes you for a baddy, he might pull you out of a tussle to bounce you out the door. All the safer for you!

Basic rule: don't compromise yourself in public. Lock the door and drink with your friends at home.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mike Spight:
pluspinc:

The case we just read at the top of this post. Yeah, he probably wasn't trained, but then maybe he was. Let's not assume that just because he's Hispanic and all the named victims have Hispanic names...that doesn't automatically qualify them as an "...untrained unwashed type...". Mike

[This message has been edited by Mike Spight (edited February 16, 2000).][/quote]

Living in So. Ca. for 17 years and Houston for 4 years before that I can see why this happened . It was purely a case of Macho garbage . If these guys were sober there was a slight chance the stool would not have been the center of a gun battle . They would have searched out another stool TOGETHER and both sat in the desired area and drank .
What I see here is that one or both were drinking too much and considered the chair challenge an assault on his manhood . If he gives in he will look like a punk forever . He will feel the shame of having backed down in front of people that know him . Shooting it out was the only way to maintain respect . He obviosly read Milton . " It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees " . This incident does not look like much to people reading about it or seeing it on T.V. but to those living in a society that worships self esteem over common sense it is " business as usual " . In this case self esteem is relative to worrying what others will think of you .
I do not know all the details but if it was " That's my stool ! Get off it !!. " then the outcome was inevitable from the first word . It doesn't matter that innocent people died . They proved THEY WERE MEN !!! Back in Houston there was a popular bar called The Pan American club . The joke was that you were searched for guns at the door . If you didn't have one ....they gave you one . Helluva place .I'm afraid these people that kill or die over nothing become poster children for Anti's every day . The sad thing is that we are in PERFECT agreement with the Anti's on these things . We don't want it either . Only the solution defines us from them . They want ALL guns gone and we want only responsable people to have them . We are not that far apart . It's just that the short distance between us happens to be The Grand Canyon .



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TOM SASS MEMBER AMERICAN LEGION MEMBER NRA MEMBER
 
Some years ago I went into a strip joint, in San Antonio, that had a metal detector at the door. Seems the owner had been shot just a month or so prior to the installation. I was riding along with friends and this was not a nice part of town. Not quite as rough as Houston.
 
Bottom line-
Alcohol and firearms do not mix...and situational awareness is more than just keeping yer eyes open, it's knowing where to not be caught dead!
 
Hard Ball: How does this incident demonstrate the value of point shooting? One shooter died and the other one killed three bystanders. Assuming that both were point shooting, the technique doesn't seem to have worked terribly well (unless the survivor shot the bystanders on purpose?).
 
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