found my 1st bad powder... what does it do to the brass cases

M

Magnum Wheel Man

New member
there is always talk of how to tell if powder is bad, how long will it last, etc...

I have powder that we inherited from my FIL that is pretty old, but always been stored cool & dry... never seen any signs of deteriourating...

... Lately I've been going through my brass & ammo trying to standardize my headstamps / brand of brass & ammo for each caliber or gun...

I had some 375 H&H ammo & cases, that were formed from other acceptable belted magnum cases, & loaded 40 or so years ago by my retired builder buddy... who has cases of old surpluss military powders, which I suspect he used on these reloads, long, long ago...

I decided to pull the bullets & wet tumble the cases & sell any that looked to be still useable at the next gun show... many of these cases had green spots showing ( pits ) & etc... in general they were pretty crusty, but likely might have been still shootable, but not something I'd want to bet a hunt on that I would be using a 375 H&H on...

the bullets pulled pretty easy... however, the base of the copper bullets were a green ball... the short stick based powder may have been compressed ??? but was all stuck in a block that required a small screw driver to break up... pouring it out revieled a yellow dust coming out with the powder... no really funky odor though... & some of the live primers I pressed out of the cases, had green corrosion on the anvil... the cupro-nickel bullets still looked nice though...

I'm running the cases in the wet tumbler to see how they look... but am thinking about just scrapping those brass cases, as I'm afraid it could be brittle ( on the 1st one I pulled, the neck split when the bullet came out, & the case cracked around the shoulder... but the rest all looked free of cracks...

when powder breaks down in the case like that, does it weaken the brass, or if I sort the best out, do you thing I can list them as they are & sell them with a clear concious??? ( they'll look like new when they are done in the wet tumbler ) I'd list them as pulled handload cases formed to 375 from the case headstamps... & offer them at 1/2 the price of correct headstamp used brass... I'd just rather not sell them, if they were going to be too brittle for the buyer to use...

your thoughts ???
 
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"when powder breaks down in the case like that, does it weaken the brass"

Yes.

Decaying powder can release acids that will chew up the brass.
 
Thanks for the link... mine looked much much better on the outside than those pictured

when the powder gasses out, can it make the brass brittle, without the normal outward signs ???

obvious pits & such would be scrap, but if the rest of the cases look like new ( no noticable pits or scaling ) would the brass still be uniformly maliable??? BTW... powder residue was stuck to the insides of the cases so at this point, ( until I get home & pull them from the wet tumbler I won't have any idea what the insides of the cases look like )

I'm thinking right now since it was only 25-30 cases, of just pitching them in recycle... but they are 375 H&H cases so they do have value... ( although most started as some 300 cases including 300 Weatherby ) so their value as 375 cases is less IMO...
 
Some of the cartridges from the box of Norma's in my link had no outward signs of trouble...

I am just glad that some did, so that I did not attempt to shoot any of them...

What that says about your situation and your brass, I do not know, but I do know that if it were me (and it aint), I would be very cautious with the brass...
 
Pull down ammo: I pulled bullets and dumped powder on 100s of cases in the last month. Most of it was loaded in 71 and 72. I could have shot some of it, I could have saved some of the powder. Problem, I had to dig some of the powder out of the cases, some of the powder had turned color etc., I dumped all of the powder into one container. A few of the necks came off with the bullets.

I did save the bullets and most of the cases. then I started on 7mm57. I was going to pull the bullets and save the powder, problem, most of the necks were split. I saved the bullets and dumped the powder then crushed the cases. I started on 8mm57, strange thing, in all appearance the ammo was good but when I crushed the cases the cases split through the neck and shoulder and then into the case body. Long case life until it is fired.

I have forming dies, when wondering about a case and its ability to be worked I invert a forming die in the press then place a case into a shell holder and raise the ram. A good case will fold like an accordion or bellows. Then there is necking up. A case that requires annealing will split when necking up from 7mm to 35 Whelen. There is a lot of difference in cases when necking up 30/06 to 338/06, new unfired 30/06 cases will make the jump without case neck splits.

F. Guffey
 
Just an FYI... after I pulled all the bullets... I wet tumbled 3 times to where the insides were shiny... with the 375 case mouth I was able to see into them pretty good, under a bright light... I found several that had scalely looking patches... most on the outsides, a couple on the insides... several had deep pits that stood out very planely after being tumbled several times... I pulled 11 cases out of 30 to throw into recycle... these were all formed from other belted magnum cases so the other 19, I'll mark 1/2 the price of of my other good used ( correct headstamp ) 375 cases...
 
( correct headstamp ) 375 cases...
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I made a deal with a smith/builder/reloader older than me for some bluing equipment. Of supplies and components he needed was 375 H&H cases. I thought I had two boxes of WW new unprimed cases. I only had one, the other box had been formed to another 375 with a shorter case length. He insisted the case heads be 375 H&H, he has the receiver, barrel and dies and now he has the cases.

As I have said, I have pulled down a pile of ammo in the last 6 weeks that was loaded 45 years ago, most of it could have been fired, but on the outside there was very little information that would indicate some of the ammo had gone bad over time. I shook every round when checking for loose powder, the cases with caked powder had no indication of loose powder.

When removing primers I found cases that were not sealed and would not hold new primers.

F. Guffey
 
just talked to my buddy I got the handloads from... taxing his memory...

he thinks they were loaded about 30 years ago, & loaded with surplus 4831 when he loaded them... they have always been stored in an air conditioned basement... I told him if he has any of that powder left in a canister, he might want to take a look at it...
 
just talked to my buddy I got the handloads from... taxing his memory...

he thinks they were loaded about 30 years ago, & loaded with surplus 4831 when he loaded them... they have always been stored in an air conditioned basement... I told him if he has any of that powder left in a canister, he might want to take a look at it...
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Good advice as old gunpowder will spontaneously combust because the breakdown is exothermic. If the stuff smells bitter or is fuming, such as these pictures show, the powder should be immediately taken out of the house and dumped. Kegs of old surplus gunpowder have auto combusted and burnt homes down. The owners did not know what was going on.

This VV powder probably dates from the mid nineties, that was when VV first came in.





Here are some threads that have good deteriorated gunpowder pictures:

Have you ever had modern smokeless powder go bad?


http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=6&f=42&t=332006

I had some H5010 powder go bad earlier this year. I purchased four pounds of this powder second hand so I can't be sure how it was stored prior to me acquiring it (I'm guessing by the lot # that is was made in 1994), but I did check to make sure each bottle was sealed. I then stored it a trunk inside for just over a year. When I found the powder, it had been about four months or so since I last looked in the trunk and was a little surprised to say the least. The smell was very noticeable as I opened the trunk and it didn't take long to see where it was coming from. As you can see from the pics, one bottle was way gone and a second was going bad as well. The two on the right seemed alright and were still sealed, but I didn't want to take a chance on them as I figured 220 grs of bad powder in a 50 cal may not be too forgiving.

I was curious how the powder looked and after scraping was was left of the lid and seeing a small but visible green cloud dissipate, I found the powder was almost one solid lump that I had to break apart. I also wanted to see how this stuff would burn was surprised to find that the powder would barely smolder when held to direct flame. The other three bottles all seemed to have similar, normal burn rates.

As a side note, I had always read that powder made a good fertilizer, but if your powder looks as bad as the one in the pics, don't put it on any plants that you care about. My good intentions were not enough to keep my wife from being mad at me for killing some of her roses
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http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?230264-When-milsurp-ammo-goes-bad


When milsurp ammo goes bad........

Have had a lot of 7.65 Argentine for several years; SF 80. I have shot about half of it but hadn't shot any for a couple years. Took some out this last summer and loaded 5 into the mag of my M1909, took up a good sitting position and set the sights at 600m for a sage brush on a hillside about that far away. Fired the first shot and smack into the sage, worked the bolt and fired the second shot and smacked the sage again. worked the bolt and the third shot wen high right and away.......dropped the but of the rifle out of the shoulder and immediately noticed smoke curling up out of the receiver........not good

Opened the bolt and the case came out minus the primer Checked the other 2 shots and they all had high pressure signs. Stopped shooting.

I finally got around to pulling the rest of the bullets and about 2/3 had severe corrosion inside the cases and on the bases of the bullets. Picture shows 2 of the fired cases including the blown primer. Middle case shows corrosion inside the cases. Bullet on right shows corrosion on the base. Other 2 bullets cleaned up nice with polishing. Powder looks good with no discoloration and smells good but will make good fertilizer any
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Has anyone else had Vihtavuori N140 corrode in loaded ammo?

http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3745264


And something written by our own Unclenick:

Old Can of 2400 Post 61,

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=539440&highlight=old+gunpowder&page=3


Of particular interest to me was the link to the thread on N140. In the early 1990's, my dad got a 1/4 lb free sample container of N140 at Camp Perry, and gave half of it to me. That's about 20 rounds worth in .308; not enough to do serious load development with. I put it in a plastic bottle with a plated and painted steel cap with cardboard seal disc. I left it at the back of a high shelf in the basement where it was out of sight and soon out of mind. Some time later I bought a full pound of N140 to experiment with, but that original 1/4 lb continued to sit.

I finally re-encountered the bottle during some cleaning out activity. It looked like this:
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Rinse water put over it poured out yellow. At that point I cut the container open and buried the wet mass under the compost heap to let nature take its course.

Interestingly, the remaining 1/8 lb still at my father's place (also untouched) appeared to be in fine condition in it's original container. Shaking some out onto a white sheet of paper to look for traces of red dust showed no signs of any. Odor was normal. Nonetheless, with only that small amount left, we scattered it over the yard.The powder in it was not powder any longer. The grains were all stuck together. That was the result of the lid seal failing and letting humidity in.
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As for the brass, fuming nitric acid gas has corroded your brass. If you see pits in a brass case, dump it. Cartridge cases are gas seals. The action of your rifle was designed to support the brass case, it is not strong enough to hold combustion pressures and if its integrity is damaged, and it ruptures, you or your gun could be damaged.
 
Decaying powder can release acids that will chew up the brass.
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I have pulled loaded ammo down, lots of it. When pulling bullets I have had the necks some with the bullet. In all appearance the case and bullet showed no indication of weakness from the outside. Problem: The powder inside the case was not loose, I could not feel it move when shook. And 'NO', the criteria is not loose powder for determining good and or bad powder.

I have military loaded ammo with dated head stamps. There is always a claim that it is good stuff for M1 GArands, I could shoot it, problem, after shooting it the cases lake on the appearance of 10,000 other surplus cases with head stamps. Then there is that other thought, I could pull the bullets, that would result in an additional 7 pounds of powder and all of those AP and tracer bullets. I have a choice, I will leave the LC loaded ammo in the neat little metal bundles of 8.

F. Guffey
 
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