Forward recoil spring in a gas operated rifle?

moobra

Inactive
Just wondering why gas piston rifles have standardised on a recoil spring in the receiver or butt?

Placing the recoil spring under or around the barrel would be possible.

Would the required spring size fatten the foregrip too much?

It has been done before here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wwINddqDsw

But this is a japanese gas operated version of the pederson action and as
such the piston actually pulls the action.
 
In the first place, the Pedersen rifle is not gas operated, it is retarded blowback, as is the Japanese copy shown in the video. (FWIW, I have never fired the Japanese rifle, but I have fired a U.S. Pedersen; I found it easy to shoot but a bit awkward and never saw any great advantage over the M1 rifle.)

The Pedersen rilfe uses a toggle type mechanism which looks a bit like that of the Luger pistol but the Luger is a true locked breech, where the Pedersen is set up so the locking is a bit below dead center requiring extra time to move the bolt. It is simple, doing away with the complications of gas operations (especially in the days of corrosive primers), but has its own complexities, including the need for lubricated cartridges. That is not really the awful thing some writers made it out to be - the "lubrication" was hard wax, not oil dripping all over the rifle, but it was a concern if ammo was dropped in dirt or sand.

The Pedersen operating spring is not around the barrel, it is contained in the bolt assembly itself.* The use of a bolt return spring around the barrel has been used in pistols (notably the Browning 1910/1922) but has not been successfully used in a rifle because rifle barrels can get a lot hotter and ruin the spring. (Even rifles with the operating spring under (M14) or over (FN-49) the barrel had problems when the rifle was allowed to become too hot.)

Jim

*The spiral shape seen through the holes in the handguard of the Pedersen rifle is not a spring - it is spiral cooling fins machined into the barrel itself.

JK
 
Just wondering why gas piston rifles have standardised on a recoil spring in the receiver or butt?
Not all rifles do. Browning BAR (the modern sporting rifle, not the WW2 one) has a recoil spring in the forend. Remington 740/742/7400/4 have the recoil spring in the forend. Winchester 100 has the recoil spring in the forend. The list goes on.
 
In rifles with a military heritage the designers had to deal with heat management issues that hunting rifle designs do not.

So to keep the springs springy in a rifle where the barrel and gas system can literally get glowing red off of less than a basic load full auto, putting springs around the barrel is a bad idea.

Jimro
 
Just off the top of my head, I think there are more gas operated rifles with recoil springs ahead of the receiver than there are in the buttstock.

The M1 Garand, the M14, the AK series, the SKS, the SVT, and some others come to mind. Under or over the barrel, not around it.
 
I think I've seen exactly one AK modified to have a spring around the gas rod, but all the rest have the spring behind the bolt carrier, right under the dust cover.

The spring wrapped around the barrel was used on the Gustlave VG1-5/MP-507, and some other early designs.

The SKS, Garand, and their derivatives (M14, Mini14) were definitely a transition point in military firearms trends. Still, I've had to change out more Garand springs than AR springs, and a lot of it has to do with how the system fatigues springs more than an AR does.

Not saying that you won't eventually wear out a spring on an AR or an AK, but in comparison they seem to last much longer than on Garands or M1As, and heat management has a bit to do with that.

Jimro
 
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