Forum Debate: Premade Posts?

MicroBalrog

New member
I was thinking. I debate antis about guns and gun control on various forums. I even do it a lot.And I thought, antis pretty much bring up the same arguments every time - why not have a bunch of stock, well-researched posts with all the facts and quotes in them ,and only edit slightly as per situation and toss 'em into the fray?

And with this in mind I wrote this stock post to counter the "2nd Amenmdent is not an individual right" argument. Comments? [on the post or the idea]

Me said:
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Yes, yes, I know. Countless people wrote about it, many of them more intelligent then I am. But I just wanted to set a few things straight.

So, what is it all about? Is that ‘right’ thing limited to the National Guard? Or does it include Mr. Jones the grocery salesman?

Let’s look at the wording, first. What does it say?

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

This is obviously divide into two logical parts.

The first part is “A well-regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free state”. The second is “the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.”

The two clauses are related logically in a structure common to 18th and 19th century document. In legal jargon, they are a ‘justificatory’ and an operative ‘clause’. So, in other words, the first half provides a reason to have the second. That is, ‘The right of the people to keep and bear arms [henceforth RKBA] shall not be infringed.’ BECAUSE ‘a well regulated militia’ is ‘necessary to the security of the free state’.

That means that that while the government is not allowed to infringe the RKBA, the RKBA is not limited to members of the militia - because the justification clause does not limit the operative clause.

And Professor Eugene Volokh of the UCLA Law School thinks that way, too.

Consider that as a simple analogue:

"A well-educated electorate being necessary to the preservation of a free society, the right of the people to read and compose books shall not be infringed."

What does it mean? It means you are going to stop infringing on the right to read and write, hoping that, as a result, some of them will be smart enough to vote for Bush. To the same tune, the Second Amednent means the government is going to stop infringing on your RKBA, hoping that, as a result, it will be possible to create a ‘well-regulated militia’.

It is perfectly clear, from the writing of the Founding Fathers that they intended ordinary people to be able to exercise the right to bear arms:

One loves to possess arms, though they hope never to have occasion for them.

Thomas Jefferson to George Washington, 1796. The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, (Memorial Edition) Lipscomb and Bergh, editors.

[The Constitution preserves] [/I] the advantage of being armed which Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation...(where) the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms. [/I]

James Madison,The Federalist Papers, No. 46.

The whole of that Bill [of Rights] is a declaration of the right of the people at large or considered as individuals...t establishes some rights of the individual as unalienable and which consequently, no majority has a right to deprive them of.

Albert Gallatin to Alexander Addison, Oct 7, 1789, MS. in N.Y. Hist. Soc.-A.G. Paper

In 1982, the United States Senate started a sub-committee on the subject. They reached the same conclusion.

Bibliography


The CommonPlace Second Amenment by Eugene Volokh
The Right to Keep and Bear Arms Report of the Subcommittee on the Constitution of the committee on the Judiciary United States Senate, 97th Congress, Second Session February, 1982
The Right to Arms: Does the Constitution or the Predilection of Judges Reign? Robert Dowlut, Oklahoma Law Review





Recommended Reading
Halbrook, Stephen P., That Every Man Be Armed: The Evolution of a Constitutional Right, University of New Mexico Press, 1984.
 
I've often thought that a collection of properly written responses and examples would make internet debating smoother, until I realized that for the most part the person you're debating will stick their heads in the sand and yell NYAH NYAH CAN'T HEAR YOU. However, if you have an audience, it can have good results.

I came up with some strategies including ones involving one or more shills to take stock positions or act as strawmen, etc. I've also wanted to have my resident flash artist to create a set of gun myth refutation animations for quite a while now.. you can show people so much more with pictures, animation, and audio than you can with just words. I'm going to throw him an email and work something out tonight.
 
I'm familiar with Flashbunny, and Oleg's blend of image and text has influenced my own graphical designs. The movies on flashbunny are good, but there's topics and arguments I'd like to cover better. The only one that I would say is done the way I would is the gunshow loophole movie.

You'll see when I have a prototype animation done.
 
I don't know that debating really changes minds, not in the short term, anyway.

The JPFO website has some good stuff for pushing the RKBA argument. I think anyone who finds themselves talking with antigun types or anti self-defense types ought to read this. It was written by a psychologist. It helps to understand why some people feel the way they do about guns, and why they act the way they do. She also tells you how to talk to the people who have these problems. I like to think I've turned a couple of people around with her techniques.

http://www.jpfo.org/ragingagainstselfdefense.htm

Still working on my wife. She's a tough nut to crack. I think she's figured out I'm right, she's just too danged stubborn to admit it.
 
Some folks I know are just as stubborn as me, except they have a different take on things. Many years of debating them on varying subjects we differ on has not gained me an inch. I think I believe that when it comes to things like RKBA some folks will never change their mind until something actually happens that takes the cataract off their eyes.

SWMBO often tells me that those who disagree with me believe they are right. My stock answer to her is that there is one problem with that...I am right and they are wrong, they just can't grasp the truth of the matter. :eek: :p :D
 
Micro-
Well done! :)

There is more than one way to shear a sheeple. I have found many folks do not want to debate instead their intention is to indoctrinate me by parroting the mis-information and liberal spin.

There is a saying "One cannot change people, places and things -the only thing one can change is themselves". Folks have to reach their own "bottom".

IME I have learned that by walking off and not saying a word can be productive. After 3 or 4 folks do this to them, "sometimes" anti's review for themselves as to why folks are not playing into their indoctrination game. [Humm, maybe this idea is flawed?]

Then again saying No has worked for me personally quite well a few times.

Anti-classmate had bleated all the words of her indoctrination. After the Live Theatre production had ended, dark, vehicles w-a-y over there, in a not so nice area, " Would you walk me to my car?"

NO - I reminded her of her "position" and she had a right to that position. I suggested she and the other lady she was with flip a coin as to who would get raped first. Reminded them "they" were to lay limp and take it.

I walked off with others whom were CCW-ing

Well she was on campus the following Monday. Seems they pleaded with Theatre Security to walk them to vehicle.

" Can you tell me more about CCW, firearms, and how to NOT be so dependent on others? That cell phone was NOT very comforting".

I'll be damned, if she didn't jump the fence and get into CCW, RKBA and such.

Oh Bill W was right. " There are those who do not suffer our disease that can learn a better way of living by following the steps".

She had to reach her own bottom (reality) - to see past the indoctrinations she spouted.

I traded her Tom Given's book for a Romance Novel. She liked Mr. Given's book a bunch better. :p
 
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