For those who think that a tiny bitty .25 handgun is enough: better think again.

Johan762

New member
Hello everybody:

Look what kind of hell this poor lady had to go to because she decided to use a mouse gun. Get a reall gun, for cryin' out loud!
I think any handgun gun under .38 Special ought to be banned for its lack of effectiveness. That way, people would buy handguns that would actually incapacitate an assilant within seconds, not minutes latter.
http://sas-aim.org/SammyFoust.htm

MOUNTTAIN MEDIA
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE DATED DEC. 5, 1999
THE LIBERTARIAN, By Vin Suprynowicz

But no honest citizen needs a gun ... right?
One of the staple mantras of the gun grabbers — we're not supposed to think about it (since statistics show it's 99 percent wrong), just chant it until is lulls us into a feeling of sweet repose — is that "If you own a firearm you're just as likely to have it taken away and used against you."

Right?

I guess that's why I took so quickly to a new book which Floyd Coons at Master Shooters Supply handed me the other day. "The Best Defense: True Stories of Intended Victims Who Defended Themselves With a Firearm," is by Robert A. Waters, a retired vocational rehabilitation counselor from Ocala Florida ($14.95 from Cumberland House, 431 Harding Industrial Drive, Nashville 37211.)

I defy anyone to dismiss these 14 harrowing, true-life accounts, often told in the words of the very crime victims who survived their ordeals due to one common factor: The fact that in America, we have a right to bear arms.

Take the case of 49-year-old divorcee Sammie Foust of Cape Coral, Fla. "I used to love to open the windows and doors and feel the gulf breezes flowing through my house," Ms. Foust told interviewer Waters. "I got pleasure from watching sailboats pass by in the canal behind my home. Now I sit in a closed-up room. I'm even afraid to answer the door."

Foust had fallen asleep cleaning house on the evening of May 9, 1996. The bed where she lay was piled with bags of old clothing she'd decided to give away, along with old purses and boxes of odds and ends.

In her housecleaning, she'd also come across a tiny .25 caliber semiautomatic handgun a friend had long ago insisted she take for self-defense, though Sammie's father had warned her it was too small, advising: "Get a bigger gun. Wounded dogs will bite you. Dead dogs don't bite."

The magazine of the .25 held four rounds. She'd checked it the night before, snapped the little slide to chamber the top round, and then fallen asleep with the little gun next to her pile of pillows.

When she heard the blinds rattle in the living room at dawn, she assumed it was her cat returning. But it wasn't. It was three-time prison inmate James Wayne Horne, who had been released for the third time only a few weeks before, after serving slightly more than one year of a 10-year sentence for aggravated assault.

The robber-assailant rushed into the bedroom and slashed Foust's face with a box-cutter knife.

She offered him her purse, which he dumped on the bed, finding $400 in bills. He then demanded Foust tell him the location of her jewelry box, which she did. But the man was upset with the cheap quality of the costume jewelry, returning to demand "her diamonds" and to continue viciously slashing and beating her about the face.

"You know I'm going to kill you," he hissed. "So you might as well give it up. Die easy or die hard, bitch."

Foust directed the man to a second credenza. She knew it contained only more costume jewelry, but she needed space and time. Time to pick up the little .25, which she was amazed her assailant had not spotted ... and to figure out what to do with it.

You see, Sammie Foust had never fired a gun in her life.

She aimed for the man's center of mass and pulled the trigger. It sounded like a little cap pistol. There was no recoil, no blood. The man did not fly backwards or keel over dead. She figured the gun had misfired.

But she'd certainly managed to upset James Wayne Horne, who flew back across the room, punching her square in the face. "She literally heard her nose implode back into her skull," Waters reports.

"Dear God," she prayed, "don't let me pass out. Dear God, please let me hold onto this gun."

The assailant pulled her to her feet, grabbed her wrist, and tried to wrench the gun away her with one hand while pummelling her with jackhammer blows to the face with his other fist. Police later told her James Wayne Horne had knocked out four of her teeth, which she'd swallowed. The bones in her gums were crushed, and her left cheekbone was fractured. Her nose was broken and her larynx fractured. Horne pounded and slashed at her face with his knife until one eyeball was hanging out of its socket.

But he did not get the gun.

Assuming her first two shots had missed, Foust resolved to save her two remaining cartridges until she had a clear shot. Finally, as the man drew back his arm for a knockout punch, she pointed the .25 at his stomach and fired again.

"Bitch!" he whispered, as he dragged her into the living room and continued beating her. ""Now I'm gonna take that gun and blow your brains out!"

Instead, Foust shot Horne a fourth time, in the abdomen.

With the man atop her, pounding and pounding, Sammie Foust believed she could not survive. But finally, James Wayne Horne lay still. When police arrived, they found tables knocked over, chairs broken, dishes shattered, the walls and floors smeared with blood.

They found James Wayne Horne where she had left him. The medical examiner concluded the first shot had entered his mouth, the second his heart, the third and fourth bullets his abdomen and groin. He had taken nearly an hour to bleed to death.

Sammie Foust noticed the police and ambulance personnel wincing whenever they looked at her, cursing her attacker under their breath. When she finally found a mirror, she realized why. Her eye was surgically reattached that day, and permanent loss of sight was minimal. She has since run out of funds to pay for the proper repair of her gums and teeth. To this day, she eats only soft food.

As an afterthought, as they hauled James Wayne Horne's body away, Sammie Foust pulled her hand from her pocket and asked a police interviewer: "Would you like to have this?"

Foust recalled for author Waters: "A policeman came back and knelt down on the driveway. He tried to pry my fingers from the gun. And he started crying and said 'I'm gonna break your fingers. I can't get them loose.' But I couldn't let go of the handle. My knuckles were swollen up, I was holding it so tight. The grip I had on that gun was what kept my attacker from getting it from me. Even as big a man as he was, he couldn't take it away."

And here I thought people like Sammie Foust would be better off if we banned all handguns. Because if she had a handgun, you see, it would just as likely be taken away and used against her.

Right?



[This message has been edited by Johan762 (edited February 02, 2000).]
 
Johan762
I agree with your basic premise. When I carry a gun it is either a Colt .45ACP or a Smith&Wesson .357 Magnum. But a .22 pr .25 caliber pistol is a lot better than no gun at all.
Don't underestimate a small pistol if you know how to use it and the range is short. I used to know a US Army officer who had lost his carbine and .45 1911A1 in combat. He killed three Chinese soldiers with his Colt .25ACP back up gun and escaped becoming a prisoner of war.
 
Well, probably better than no gun at all but if the choice was mine between a .25 and a knife, I'm grabbing the knife.

Maybe someone needs to start an information campaign along the lines of the "Got Milk" commercials to educate people on the dangers of underpowered firearms in personal defense situations.

GOT FIREPOWER?

I can see the antis having a proverbial cow now, but with so many myths about guns killing instantaneously and blowing people off their feet, etc., being believed by so many, I think it might actually save lives.

And as the antis are so fond of saying, if it saves just one life..........
 
Imagine how few blows to her head the assailant would have made, if the victim have had a "hand cannon". One shot, one kill. Done, over, end of story.

We the people should be enforcing the law by vaporizing each and everyone of these goons as they violate our Rights. It's obvious that this particular offender was not stopped by the judicial system. The only alternative to jail time...is sleepy time. Good night.
 
I read the same book a while ago. A few things really stand out in these stories. 1. If you use a mouse gun the bad guy may eventually die, but not until he beats the crap out of you or kills you first. 2. People expect the bad guy when shot to fly off his feet backwards into the wall like they see in the movies or on TV. 3. They are surprised the bad guy is still coming after them after shooting at him several times.

What I also felt was alarming is most of the people in these stories keep a mouse gun as their primary defensive weapon. If these stories represent the average gun owner, there are a lot of ignorant people out there.
 
My wife came with her own little raven .25 auto. Took it down to the creek one time to see if I could hit anything with it. Started out with an empty milk carton at 15 feet. Hey I did hit it and I have proof. The bullet went in but it never came out. The only thing those things will do is piss someone off.

So for valentines (a couple of weeks later) I took her to a gun show and let her pick out her own .357. She ended up getting a Rossi model 971 in stainless with a 2 1/2" barrel. I also gave her some of my copper jacketed hollow points in .357 to use in it.



------------------
Richard

The debate is not about guns,
but rather who has the ultimate power to rule,
the People or Government.
RKBA!
 
Guys, some of you are missing the point.

Sammie didn't choose that gun, it was given to her by her father, over her protests. She had only the vaguest idea of how to handle it. And she still came out on top. Granted, she suffered terribly, but she WON. Isn't that the first rule of fighting?

------------------
"If your determination is fixed, I do not counsel you to despair. Few things are impossible to diligence and skill. Great works are performed not by strength, but perseverance."
-- Samuel Johnson
 
Let's hope that the "victories" in these types of situations aren't always so costly. She's probably scarred (physically and emotionally) for life.

I still think the GOT FIREPOWER? campaign ought to be implemented if for no other reason than to save people from believing thier gun will shoot through a bulldozer blade and continue on to kill BG's instantaneously.
 
Good point, Coinneach.
Thank God she had a gun, even if it was only a 25 ACP.
Jack 99 may be right, a knife in his hands is probably more dangerous than a 25, but does anyone think a knife in Sammie Foust's hand is more dangerous than a 25 ACP?
 
I'll have to respectfully disagree on the "knife is better than a .25" line of thought.

Distance is a friend.

If this woman would have had even a small amount of training, maybe she would have shot 4 rapid shots directly CM OF HIS HEAD, or tried to aim for the eye sockets (no skull obstruction). AT least with a gun you have the ally of distance.

I can shoot. I also have studied martial arts for 11 years. Given the choice, (after avoidance of course) I'll take the .25 over a knife.

I mean, do you really want to get close enough to smell some awful puke's breath...?

Be safe.

CMOS

------------------
GOA, TSRA, LEAA, NRA, SAF and I vote!
 
Here is a point that you overlook and that I have made on other forums.

Most DGUs are successful and do not entail firing a shot. The rate of successful DGUs runs about 90%. That means about 10% are unsuccessful. There are no data suggesting differential deterrence based on caliber and I've looked for it.

Of the 10% that are left, let's say that a 25 ACP is successful 25% of the time.

That makes the 25 ACP defensive success rate 92.5% of the time. Let's say that the success rate of a 38 is 60% of the time.
Then the success rate is 96%

But the success rate with no gun is between
25% and 50%. So is the person better off with a 25 ACP?

The overwhelming effect of deterrence swamps the stopping power debate. If you do the goat test thing and talk a person out of any gun, what have you done!?

Also, we don't really have good data on stopping power in crimes by caliber. We have anecdotes about different rounds but no really good figures of how many folks are successful in defending themselves if they put a round in someone.

You have to look at the overall risk picture and a 25 ACP is a damn fine investment if that is your only option for carry.
 
In my interviews with about forty people for The Best Defense, my second book which is still being written, and my American Guardian column, I found that people use all sorts of guns for protection. In the incidents in which they were forced to shoot someone, maybe one or two bad guys were stopped in their tracks. It didn't matter what was used, the gun rarely stopped anyone dead.

In an attempted car-jacking, for instance, a guy with a 5-shot .38 hit his assailant with all five rounds and the bad guy kept coming. The reason is that he was loaded up on crack cocaine. And so was the guy Sammie shot.
In fact, at least 80 % of those assailants that I've written about were doped up on something.

It would be nice if everyone had a 9mm or a .38 or a .357 Magnum or a .45, but most don't. Most have what they were given, or what they bought years ago. Fortunately, just showing a handgun usually works on sane bad guys. It's the dopers who will keep on coming after they've had six holes blown in them.

By the way, Sammie now has several .357 Magnums stashed around her home. Ain't nobody gonna mess with this woman again.

Robert
 
I agree with Coinneach. A .25 is inadequate, and yet, had she not had it, she would not have WON the fight!!!

Inadequate or no, the gun that is there with you is superior to the gun that is not, and often a .25 is the only one capable of being brought along with you. It is another choice when you are in a bad situation.
 
Well, I'm impressed that:

1) She knew how to operate the gun proficiently (remove safeties, if any, etc.)
2) Hang on to the gun as she did - this says a LOT for small pistol. Long ones can be grabbed and wrenched upwards easier, breaking your trigger finger.
3) She HIT all four times - not easy with a gun that small, even at point-blank range.
4) She had the presence of mind to wait to make her last shots hit center mass.

This is why I carry a .45 or.40 at all times, though I'd feel plenty of protection with a 9mm as well - in fact I'm contemplating making a Glock 34 my all-purpose & CCW gun once I get it.

[This message has been edited by Futo Inu (edited February 03, 2000).]
 
I agree with many of you that without the .25 caliber pistol that she had, Sammy would have been dead, but I agree more strongly with Jack99's idea that there should be a campaign warning people about the danger of having an underpowered pistol. Although it is true that the .25 pistol saved Sammy's life, she still must suffered horribly in the hand of that thug. If an informational campaign such as the one proposed by Jack99 were indeed launched, people such as Sammy Faust (who obviously did not know anything about guns, since she never shot one in her entire life) would probably open their eyes and realize that they need to upgrade their home protection's firepower.
In this day and age where the science of metallurgy has allowed us to build smaller and lighter handguns in .38 special, 9mm, .45ACP, or even .357 Magnum, it is in my humble opinion that no one should have the excuse to own a pea shooter such as a .25 or a .22 for self defense. Yes, that is true that the best gun in time of trouble is the one that you got with you, however, like I stated above that with current advances in both polymeric and metallurgical engineering, one is not limited to just owning a mouse gun due to size and weight considerations. Just look at that old wheel gun the "Bulldog" in .44 special. That gun is only slightly bigger than a .25 Raven or Jennings. When compared to .25 Berreta, the size difference would shrunk even more. I am sure that anybody would be served better with the .44 Special "Bulldog" than with a .25 Jennings / Raven. Smith and Wesson even has a .357 Magnum handgun built on their tiny J-frame!

The antis are really good at making issues out of nothing. When a person defended himself/herself with .22 or a .25 (or a .380 for that matter) and failed to stop the assailant within seconds, he/she might loose the gun to the bad guy. When the bad guy used that gun to kill its former master with, the antis are going to say: "Hey, look here, we got proves that defending yourself with a handgun will get you killed even faster!" It only takes one or two of these incidents to arm the antis with ammunitions to launch their stupid (but effective, nonetheless, thank's to the biased media) propaganda. It doesn't take too many of this type of incidents to occur before the antis would scream bloody murder.

Johannes
 
One thing that was good about the little gun in this case was that the intruder DIDN'T spot it. Perhaps due to its small size, perhaps due to low light, perhaps both. While I wholeheartedly agree that 38spl and up would be much better, in this specific case, it just may be the small size was a factor in the gun's success, as a 4" .357 might have been seen immediately.

John
 
Ever work with poor people? There are tons of poor women on minimum wage jobs in San Antonio. You guys talk about J frames =
$350 new. Taurus = $250. They aren't going to
buy SGN and go through the FFL dance to get an used Model 65 for $158.

You can get a 25 ACP for $75 bucks here.

So buy a poor person a gun? It shoudn't be hard to make a reliable and cheap gun. You got to keep it under $100 bucks.
 
Futo, I'm with you there, My carry gun is a Glock 35 .40S&W converted over to .357Sig with 3 preban 15 round Glock 22 mags, the main mag has a Taylor Freelance + 4 bringing me up to 19+1 of .357Sig. Truth is, I've got over $1,000 in this gun.

$1,000??? YES! How much is your life worth?
 
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