Flying Tigers, two different wing gun calibers!!?!

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bamaranger

New member
Reading a book on the "Flying Tigers" so titled. I just read where the P40's, (100 of them, of which 99 seem to have been assembled) were essentially bought by China pretty bare, no radios, gunsights, or.....guns.

The organizers for the AVG acquired the .50 cal nose guns directly from the US Army. About half of the .30 caliber wingguns came from from Colt in caliber 7.92 (so says the book anyhow). The other half from the Brits in caliber .303.

Now that would have been a real headache if your were an armorer.
 
Yes, the AVG had mixture of calibers in the Curtis Hawks they had.
They had a supply of .50 Brownings, but expecting different planes , no.30s.
It was probably best, 7.92 was the main cartridge for the Chinese military. Due to years of German influence. The account I read said the .303 colts were acquired from the Brits in Burma and India.
They tried to segregate by caliber in the squadrons. I imagine the was a lot of cussing by the Crew Chiefs and Armorers.
 
The way it was said, kind of makes it sound like the planes were right wing 7.92, left wing .303, but, of course that wasn't the case. Each plane would have either one or the other.

I'm sure there was a lot of cursing from crew chiefs and armorers, its one of the many free services we offer. :D

But it pales in comparison to the supply guy who has to get the right ammo, AND then get it to the crew chiefs and armorers for the planes that need it.

China was desperately short of every thing except Chinese.

There are a lot of good books on and AVG, some written by the people who were there. Does the one you're reading mention the AVG pilot who was dubbed "the enemy ace"?
 
IIRC the use of .30(±) and .50-caliber MGs on the same airplane was a peculiarity of prewar USAAC/USAAF doctrine. The idea was that the smaller guns could be used against fighters, observation planes, and so forth, while the bigger ones would be used against bombers. This concept made some sense with early WWII fighters that weren't nearly as powerful as later types, and thus couldn't haul as much weight.

In practice, the .30-caliber guns were found to be largely ineffective against all but the lightest enemy aircraft, and since good firing opportunities are fleeting in real-life dogfights, pilots wanted to make every hit count. Add the logistical annoyances caused by having to supply 2 different calibers, and it's easy to understand why .30-caliber guns were soon removed from most U.S. combat aircraft except in applications where a .50-cal simply wouldn't fit (e.g. the Douglas SBD Dauntless back-seat mount). IIRC many .30-cal wing guns were removed from U.S. fighters, sent back to the States, and mounted in gunnery trainers, since .30-06 remains perfectly adequate for blasting holes in a towed banner or windsock. ;)

OTOH as pointed out, the AVG was short of absolutely everything, so it makes sense that they would have been forced to tolerate the non-standard armament situation. Also, .30-cal guns remained relatively more effective against Japanese fighters than German or Italian ones, since the Japanese famously didn't implement self-sealing fuel tanks or cockpit armor early in the war.
 
author

The "Flying Tigers" book I am reading is written by one Daniel Ford. Ford is an historian, not a vet. I have not read about "enemy ace". The book is very detailed and technical, as opposed to one I'd read when I was much younger, say high school. The planes and pilots have gotten to China, they are assembling planes.

AS an aside, my Dad was an armorer on F86's (6-.50's) during the Korea era.....in Iceland. WE never could get Dad to travel after that.
 
Two calibers of guns was very common in WWII fighters, mostly those who were designed before the war. We had .50 cowl guns, and .30 wing guns, The Germans had all rifle caliber (8mm) guns in the Bf 109, until 1940 when they introduced 20mm cannon in the wings. Likewise, the Japanese Zero had 7.7mm cowl guns and wing 20mm cannon. The British had all .303s until they introduced 20mm wing cannon in early 41. As the war went on, we replaced the .30 wing guns with .50s, and dropped the cowl guns from many designs. Later models of Axis fighters replaced their cowl guns with 12.7/13mm..

The arms race in the air was a parallel of the arms race on the ground (tanks/anti-tank guns).

I forget which book it was, (I think one written by one of the Flying Tigers) that mentioned the "enemy ace" The poor guy's name escapes me, but he was one of the Tigers, who cracked up 5 (five) of the P-40s on the ground, before going into combat. It also included information about other accidents that cost the AVG planes and pilots without the Japanese being directly involved.

Sometimes historians can write really good books, and sometimes the "guys who were there" mis-remember some things, but their personal point of view adds something even the best historians can seldom match.
 
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