Fliers
- Thread starter GWV
- Start date
First thing I'd look at is the shooter. Not trying to say anything bad about you, but for me it's usually the loose nut pressing the trigger. Are you able to call your shots? By that I mean are you focused enough, and honest enough, to know you pulled a shot before you confirm it on paper? That helps a ton. Are you setting up the rifle on the rest or bi-pod consistently shot to shot? Then look at the reloads. Are you 100% consistent in case prep? Is your powder charge case to case equal? Do you crimp? Is the crimp equal case to case? Is the flier random, or maybe always the fifth shot? If so the barrel may be heating up causing a flier. Lots comes into play, have to find it somehow.
Unfornately the variables are extremely tough to overcome.
The only way to really do it is a ridged shooting setup, ie the Bullet makers and powder folks have to test with.
It would be good to have a line out of X gives you this much improvement, Y this much etc.
And the discipline to hold 5 good shots to a small spot is why there are pros and the rest of us.
If its really out of the group and your trigger work felt right, then its obviously an issue load.
One guy said he marked those cases and a repeat put it in the trash.
The only way to really do it is a ridged shooting setup, ie the Bullet makers and powder folks have to test with.
It would be good to have a line out of X gives you this much improvement, Y this much etc.
And the discipline to hold 5 good shots to a small spot is why there are pros and the rest of us.
If its really out of the group and your trigger work felt right, then its obviously an issue load.
One guy said he marked those cases and a repeat put it in the trash.
Don Fischer
New member
My first though would also be the shooter. I don't shoot as well consistently these days as I did 20 yrs ago. Hard to believe but every time I pull one I know it right away. Probably not as demanding anymore.
Also, if you eliminate the flier what size is the group and then what size is it with the flier? The point here is to see if this is within normal statistical variation or not. The fact it happens routinely once out of five shots, though, suggests that's not the issue.
Another possibility, if the gun has been shot several thousand rounds, is a shot out barrel. My M1A barrel started throwing 11:00 9's, first 1 in 20, then one in 10, then one in 5 over a few hundred rounds. That's how it happens because the throat get asymmetrical and when a bullet i nudged into the uneven part the resulting flier is in about the same location each time.
Another possibility, if the gun has been shot several thousand rounds, is a shot out barrel. My M1A barrel started throwing 11:00 9's, first 1 in 20, then one in 10, then one in 5 over a few hundred rounds. That's how it happens because the throat get asymmetrical and when a bullet i nudged into the uneven part the resulting flier is in about the same location each time.
Usually a tiny lapse in concentration by the shooter. Or a tiny anticipation of the recoil. Although it can also be a tiny variation in the bullet, amount of powder or even a tiny bit of unforeseen wind.
Group sizes always include fliers. However, group size itself doesn't matter, depending on what you're working up the load to do. A consistent 2 or 3 inches at 100 is fine for deer hunting. Usually fine for wee, tiny, varmints too. MOA groups don't matter much period. Most hunting rifles aren't capable of it consistently anyway.
Group sizes always include fliers. However, group size itself doesn't matter, depending on what you're working up the load to do. A consistent 2 or 3 inches at 100 is fine for deer hunting. Usually fine for wee, tiny, varmints too. MOA groups don't matter much period. Most hunting rifles aren't capable of it consistently anyway.
Again, I bid on and won an auction for a rifle that was voted as 'the ugliest'. I bid on the sum of parts but could not believe anyone could build anything that ugly and not know what they were doing. Reloading forums had a field day as in "what was he thinking of".
I loaded 12 different loads of 10 rounds each with 12 different head stamps, bullets and powders.
Because of the design it did not take long to get the rifle hot so it took most of the day to determine what the rifle liked. There were no flyers and no group was larger than a quarter, some groups shared the same hole. I decided there was nothing I could do to improve on the accuracy so I decided to apply the leaver policy; I left her the way I founder. The barrel and receiver was one piece as in he used JB Weld to glue the barrel and receiver to a 360 degree stock; no recoil lug, the stock was the recoil lug. I had more money invested in the scope, mount and rings than I have in the rifle.
I built my son a 270, I took it to the range with 12 different loads of 10 rounds each, no flyers. I repeated the loads of 120 rounds and then gave him the rifle to determine what the rifle liked. He said the rifle liked everything so it did not matter what I loaded for it. And then
he said he had never had so much trouble taking a rifle apart and I was horrified. I never planed on anyone taking the rifle apart. No flyers, I built him a 7mm57, if he wants to slide a dollar bill between the barrel and stock he will have to get another rifle.
F. Guffey
I loaded 12 different loads of 10 rounds each with 12 different head stamps, bullets and powders.
Because of the design it did not take long to get the rifle hot so it took most of the day to determine what the rifle liked. There were no flyers and no group was larger than a quarter, some groups shared the same hole. I decided there was nothing I could do to improve on the accuracy so I decided to apply the leaver policy; I left her the way I founder. The barrel and receiver was one piece as in he used JB Weld to glue the barrel and receiver to a 360 degree stock; no recoil lug, the stock was the recoil lug. I had more money invested in the scope, mount and rings than I have in the rifle.
I built my son a 270, I took it to the range with 12 different loads of 10 rounds each, no flyers. I repeated the loads of 120 rounds and then gave him the rifle to determine what the rifle liked. He said the rifle liked everything so it did not matter what I loaded for it. And then
he said he had never had so much trouble taking a rifle apart and I was horrified. I never planed on anyone taking the rifle apart. No flyers, I built him a 7mm57, if he wants to slide a dollar bill between the barrel and stock he will have to get another rifle. F. Guffey
It could be, I don't know what your reloading process is...
One thing I'm surprised no one mentioned is BARREL WHIP.
As the bullet moves down the barrel, the barrel vibrates (like a tuning fork), and since the back end is fixed, the muzzle end "whips" up and down. This happens EVERY shot, it's the nature of the beast.
Accuracy is consistency. Every thing about the rifle, AND the ammo being as close to exactly the same, every shot. Consistent ammo will have each bullet leaving the muzzle at the same point in the arc of its movement.
A bullet that is moving just a few feet per second faster, or slower than the others (and still within normal tolerances) can exit the muzzle at a different point in the arc of muzzle movement, and because the barrel is "aimed" at a slightly different spot, the bullet hits somewhere away from the rest, and if called a flyer. (it flew to a different spot on the target)
The terms "extreme spread" and "standard deviation" are used in velocity measurements, because even if you take the most care humanly possible making your ammo, there are, and always will be variations between individual rounds.
The goal is to make the variations both as minimal and a consistent as practical, and possible. They cannot be entirely eliminated.
Im the leading candidate for the most frequent flyer miles,
I load mixed brass for my hunting rifles, test assorted bullets, and powders.
Usually, when weather agrees, hit the range every weekend.
I shoot off a bag and ise a rear bag.
My real problem is lack of proper attention to the attributes that make a decent shooter better. When I squeeze the trigger, I know at that second whether it will be a grouper or a flyer. Luckily I have some real nice shooting rifles that I put decent handloaded ammo through, but I cant get those pesky bastard fliers to stop embarassing my components.
So I figure that into my end result, I figure that if I can get a steady hold for enough time to acquire a good sight picture and squeeze the round off Im confident I can make a clean kill out to 300, which rarely happens where I hunt.
Id say that if I can put 3 out of 5 rnds under a dime, and the flier, or fliers arent too far out of my group, Im tickled and confident the ammo is good and so is my rifle.
Its like the Seargent Major said: "Sometimes you eat the bear, and sometimes it eats you".
I load mixed brass for my hunting rifles, test assorted bullets, and powders.
Usually, when weather agrees, hit the range every weekend.
I shoot off a bag and ise a rear bag.
My real problem is lack of proper attention to the attributes that make a decent shooter better. When I squeeze the trigger, I know at that second whether it will be a grouper or a flyer. Luckily I have some real nice shooting rifles that I put decent handloaded ammo through, but I cant get those pesky bastard fliers to stop embarassing my components.
So I figure that into my end result, I figure that if I can get a steady hold for enough time to acquire a good sight picture and squeeze the round off Im confident I can make a clean kill out to 300, which rarely happens where I hunt.
Id say that if I can put 3 out of 5 rnds under a dime, and the flier, or fliers arent too far out of my group, Im tickled and confident the ammo is good and so is my rifle.
Its like the Seargent Major said: "Sometimes you eat the bear, and sometimes it eats you".
I am the opposite.
As my only goal is tiny holes in paper, its most annoying when that does not happen.
Sometimes one shows up so far out of the group I know its a one off.
I will shoot a 6th to confirm that.
Somedays I am just not shooting that well.
You can look for patterns, if they are random, hmmm.
Often its the 5th shot just because we try so hard.
As my only goal is tiny holes in paper, its most annoying when that does not happen.
Sometimes one shows up so far out of the group I know its a one off.
I will shoot a 6th to confirm that.
Somedays I am just not shooting that well.
You can look for patterns, if they are random, hmmm.
Often its the 5th shot just because we try so hard.
If there was a 1000 dollar tool that would eliminate fliers 100 % of the time the inventor would be rich and no one would ever get any flyers.
Best cure I have found is consistency both at the reloading bench and the and the shooting bench. Of course being mortal perfection is impossible to achieve. But then the fun for me is in the attempt to improve bit by bit
Best cure I have found is consistency both at the reloading bench and the and the shooting bench. Of course being mortal perfection is impossible to achieve. But then the fun for me is in the attempt to improve bit by bit
I would first look at trends . Is it always a specific shot that is the flyer ie 1st , 3rd , 5th ? If not then you might want to separate each case that shoots the flyers and see if there are differences with those cases from the rest . Neck wall thicker on one side then the other for example . Maybe the flyer cases have more or less internal case volume then the rest .
Then there is the possibility of you not loading consistently . Is your brass of good quality or mixed ? Are all your primers seated the same meaning are you actually paying attention to that as you seat them . What about bullet hold ? can you feel some bullets seating easier then others . If so I've been told that's likely at least a 10lb difference in force needed to seat the bullet . That surely would effect bullet release .
So there's a few things to think about
Then there is the possibility of you not loading consistently . Is your brass of good quality or mixed ? Are all your primers seated the same meaning are you actually paying attention to that as you seat them . What about bullet hold ? can you feel some bullets seating easier then others . If so I've been told that's likely at least a 10lb difference in force needed to seat the bullet . That surely would effect bullet release .
So there's a few things to think about
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And then there was the article written before the Internet; a shooter/reloader gun magazine article writer purchased 500 cases from one manufacturer. After receiving the cases he sorted and then sorted again, he fired and fired again over and over. By the time he finished he settled on 48 cases of the 500 that could be considered perfect cases. He then started on the culls, he found the same accuracy with the culls he had with the perfect cases; there were times he had to index the case in the chamber to get the same results. I thought it a most interesting article I have always separated cases by head stamps and lots and years because of the article.
F. Guffey
F. Guffey
Or? This: I went to the range with two new rifles, both chambered to 300 Win Mag., one shot one hole groups (after 74 rounds) and the other shot like a shot gun, it shot patterns. I shot the same ammo in both rifles, Winchester said I should shoot the Model 70 more, I sent the Model 70 back to Winchester and things got worst, they finally sent the rifle back in a new box.
F. Guffey
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