Flame Cutting

T

thumbs47

New member
I guess this is reloading question. I have a Ruger Security Six that I reload for. I have been loading 158 grain cast. I would like to go to 125 cast but somewhere I heard that if I go that light a bullet there would be a chance of flame cutting. I don't want to do anything to harm this revolver. Is this true or an ole wives tail? I want to load some soft target loads with the 125's and save the mag loads for the heavies.

thanks for the help
 
Last edited:
Welcome to the forum thumbs!
To start off I'm far from an expert, but if I'm remembering correctly, the reason some guns (S&Ws mainly I believe) were having issues with flame cutting was because of magnum loads with light bullets. Can't remember the reason exactly, but I'm sure someone will have more knowledge on the subject. Just my .02, but I think you'll be fine with lighter target loads. Again, I'm sure someone with much more experience than me will post shortly. Good luck and stay safe!
 
soft target loads with the 125's
Click to expand...

I think littlephil is correct. The problem is with heavy loads, not soft target loads and I think Ruger has enough metal in their guns to not be an issue.

Go ahead, you won't have problems.
 
any magnum revolver round is going to have flame cutting. high pressure gas going through the cylinder is the cause of it however it is self limiting and not going to be a safety issue. it ain't going to cut through the top strap
 
Flame cutting is one thing, but throat erosion could be another consequence of using magnum cherges with lighter weight bullets combined with a slower burning powder.

As others have said, I, too, am not an expert, but have read many accounts of forcing cone damage resulting from using 110 - 125 grain bullets with certain slower burning powders in the 357.

Just google "forcing cone damage" and those accounts and photos can be located.

Apparently, this does not occur in all cases, but has occurred as per the published accounts.

Bayou
 
Supposedly certain powders under certain conditions, with very heavy loads and very light bullets sometimes caused this. I've never heard of it being raised as an issue with light target loads.

I am curious as to why the desire to go to 125gr bullets?
 
The reason for flame cutting encompasses several things, and they all contribute.. I believe that the two greatest reasons for it are large charges of slow powder, and as that slow powder burns, highly abrasive particles blow out at high pressure and high heat, and the burn lasts a bit longer and carries far more mass. Some people have reported this,but later found out that it was just a line tattooed into the steel. .357 maximum is one of the more intense l I ads. A ruger black hawk was tested in that cartridge for hundreds of rounds, and showed cutting. Microscopic testing showed that it wasn't really cutting, that the steel had been peeled of softer particles, leaving what probably a harder surface with strong crystallization. Further use showed no increase.

Your .38 may never show evidence, especially if it is a larger flame with a wider gap. The difference of only a few hundredths allows that flame to cool and dissipate much more than you would think.

Looking at my Smith, which has had thousands of rounds put through it, it hasn't even cut through the blue.
 
Thanks guys. Yeah I've been doing some surfing trying to find answers. Some say it's the flame that causes the problem some say it's the powder meaning ball powder particularly. Seems that theory is related to the sand blasting effect. They claim with ball powder some, not burnt, will spray out with quite a force cutting the top strap. Again light bullets, magnum loads and ball powder. Just found that last night while looking around.

Ha. The reason I want to run light bullets. Well its three fold. LOL First my mold drops generous 9mm bullets that can be sized to size them to .358. I also PC my bullets to that even makes them a bit larger before sizing. The second reason is I have to scrounge less lead and what I have will last longer. Third I can use the same cast bullets for my 9mm's and .357 just size them differently. Less stock to keep and I can use the same bullets for both. This in no way is worth it if it will harm my Ruger. I only want to use these bullets in light loads. I am using the lightest .357 published load for Hp-38 that I have found. For my heavier loads I'll be using 158 grain bullets. I just want the lighter loads for plinking and target shooting.

So it seems you guys really haven't heard of this as much of a problem. Yes it happens but not that often and if I keep my loads light shouldn't be a problem. Right? About cone erosion. It is caused for the same reason as flame cutting? In other words if I keep my loads light will that also keep the forcing cone from having problems?

There is no problem with the revolver now. Cone and strap look great. I see a little line on the strap but I would consider this normal. I just don't want to cause problems.
 
Last edited:
On your recited issues, if you stick with faster burning powders with a larger grain bullet, 140 grain and up, from what I've read, this would greatly diminish any risk of forcing cone damage and flame cutting on the inside of the top strap.

Bayou
 
So it seems you guys really haven't heard of this as much of a problem. Yes it happens but not that often and if I keep my loads light shouldn't be a problem. Right? About cone erosion. It is caused for the same reason as flame cutting? In other words if I keep my loads light will that also keep the forcing cone from having problems?
Click to expand...

I've got a Model 66 that I bought in 1980 when I became a police officer. It rode in my holster for over 20 years before I transitioned to a semi.

For years, all I shot in it were hot magnum 125 grain loads. No one knew about throat erosion or flame cutting back in those days. Over the years, I probably put over 5,000 rounds of hot 125 grain magnum loads through it.

Yes, it exhibits both a small erpsopm line above the chamber mouths on the top strap. That's flame cutting. It also exhibits some small throat erosion. The revolver is not hurt, it's just worn. It had a hard career. Nowadays it is used to teach grandkids how to run a revolver, with light target loads. When I'm gone, it will probably go to my eldest son. He's lusted over it for years, and I have no doubt it will continue in the family for at least another generation.

Yes, a steady diet of hot 125 grain magnums will show wear on a revolver. However, it is not the huge problem that some folks like to make it seem. It's a matter or wear and use. The biggest problem my 66 probably has now,is probably that I should take it apart and give it a good cleaning and oiling. Change all the springs. That would probably make it feel 20 years younger.
 
very heavy loads and very light bullets sometimes caused this.
Click to expand...

That's as quick as it can be explained. Yes, it's a real thing. Basically, the burning propellant acts like a cutting torch into the top strap of the revolver.

I have three Smith revolvers (two 686's and one 629) that have some top strap flame cutting. And yes, the primary culprits were light bullets with heavy charges of slow propellant (re. W296). I don't load or shoot that kind of silliness anymore (and yes, light bullets with slow propellants are just silly - but that's for another post), so it's no longer a problem for me. Two of the three guns are safe queens these days, so the ammo I do shoot through them maybe once or twice a year is irrelevant. The third gun (686 4") I still shoot fairly often, but the ammo I feed it these days are not flame cutters, so to speak.

BTW, flame cutting caused the demise of 357 MAXIMUM revolvers. The high pressures, and long burns were brutal on those revolvers. The cartridge still has a strong following among the single shot (eg. Thompson Center guns) shooters where flame cutting is not an issue. Ballistic performance is excellent.

Getting back to your situation, and as already stated: target level 125's are not going to be an issue.
 
That's as quick as it can be explained. Yes, it's a real thing. Basically, the burning propellant acts like a cutting torch into the top strap of the revolver
Nick_C_S
Click to expand...
.
Pretty much all powders can produce "flame cutting" but it's how fast, how much cutting occurs that matters. Frame alloy/steel, cylinder gap, powder type and "burn temp.", and powder charge all add to the damage, some contribute more, some less. I haven't noticed any excessive flame cutting on any of my magnum revolvers, even with "hot" burning powders and light for caliber bullets (Ruger, Taurus, Dan Wesson revolvers, both blued and stainless).
 
So it seems you guys really haven't heard of this as much of a problem.
Click to expand...

Thumbs47-hope you stick around for a while. This site is one of the most polite and informative gun sites around.

The thing with the modern interwebs and all is that most of us have HEARD of the problem...almost ANY problem like this that gets reported even once gets repeated and repeated and even I have heard of flame cutting and went and checked out my revolvers and found no problem with them.

So almost all of us HAVE heard of the problem but just because we've heard of it and know it can happen doesn't mean it's all that common or all that serious a problem for most users and like others before me have said, using light target loads you should be fine.

Good luck and post a range report if you get the chance.

P.S. I think Ruger puts out some of the strongest, best made modern revolvers out there.
 
BTW, flame cutting caused the demise of 357 MAXIMUM revolvers. The high pressures, and long burns were brutal on those revolvers. The cartridge still has a strong following among the single shot (eg. Thompson Center guns) shooters where flame cutting is not an issue. Ballistic performance is excellent.
Click to expand...
That's a debatable topic, and one that I really don't want to argue about. (As it really does come down to opinion and interpretation.)
However, most .357 Maximum fans will tell you three things on the topic of flame cutting:
1. It is self-limiting, in that the cutting slows greatly, to the point of advancement being essentially unmeasurable outside of a laboratory, as the cut gets deeper.
2. Ruger killed the .357 Maximum models because of customer fear (and too many returns for "inspection" on their dime), over-hyped gun rag articles, and low sales numbers.
3. The Rugers have more than enough material in the top strap to deal with tens of thousands of rounds, even if the flame cutting wasn't self-limiting.


It's not like it's very deep on steel frames, anyway.

Think of it more like etching than cutting.


I have had deeper scratches on brand new firearms, simply from sliding around in the plastic boxes, than the flame etching any of my 'Magnum' revolvers (including the 700 gajillion round Super Blackhawk that Ruger rebuilt).
 
Frank, I agree with what you say. a review said that cutting started early, (burning off the blue) progress was rapid (the weakest parts of the alloy were sand blasted/burned off) and it never showed signs of further deterioration through the rest of the hundreds of rounds fired by all of the testers. (Ooh, seems that the layer of weakest particles in the alloy burned off and left the harder crystals)

They contacted both makers and (of course) returned the guns for inspection and they were reminded that it was an intense load and a hot thing to fire with an air gap, that their testing during development over tens of thousands of rounds, including proof loads ha also(of c course) shown signs of cutting th a failed to become an issue even after thousands of rounds through the development weapons.

The review ended with a note something like this...

"The gas cutting that was obvious in both brands of revolvers is an area of concern even though both companies have said that their own testing showed no risk. We'd like to see if damage occurs in off the shelf guns over the next few years."

Is it any wonder? Some very interesting and useful designs have been killed the same way. Maybe they were ahead of their time, like the five mm rem, pretty much the 17 mag.
 
It also reminds me of an article about the heym factory. The writer was allowed into the treasure room. He complained about the finish of t g e stock, blaming its ugliness on the German engineers, complained about some very small flaws in the stock that had taken several days to create, hinting that it wasn't fit to be sold. He wished that he could have taken one home, but not if he had to pay for it.

So, heym had a rather law endorsement.
 
Thanks for the info FrankenMauser. Not having a 357 MaX, I was never intimately involved in the whole flame cutting thing with them. I probably read too many gun rags back then :p
 
Thanks a lot guys. Sounds like I will be fine just keep the loads down to linkers and target loads. Seems it isn't as prevalent a problem as I thought it might be. What got me started was I read about some fire cutting with the early lcr's. May or may not be true but got me thinking. My Security Six is new to me so I don't have a clue what was fired in it before I got it but there is only a normal line on the strap like was mentioned as a tattoo mark. No cutting as I would call it. I only fired about 30 rounds with the 125 grain and only low powered loads. Sounds like it will be fine. Like I said my more powerful loads will be with the 158's.
 
Prompted by this thread, had to rush out and check a number of S&W revolvers, calibers .32 H&R, .357, 41, 44, .45 and .460. In about every case of course the telltale line on the top strap was very obvious, but using a razor blade and running it over and across the lines did not detect any indentations whatsoever. One model 50, a .45 ACP, is about 50 years old. So there were certainly no real problems to behold. From various posts the primary suspect seems to be hot loads with light bullets. For the most part I would have been using medium loads with medium to heavy bullets. The heavy .460 loadings were an exception to the medium loads but hardly any telltale line was even present.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top