FL gun law upheld by courts

divemedic

New member
Employees with concealed weapons permits can keep guns locked in their cars at work in Florida, but businesses are allowed to prohibit customers from bringing firearms on their property, a federal judge has ruled.

ETA: I guess this means that property owners cannot stop employees, but can ask customers caught with weapons to leave.
 
Personally, and allthough I disagree with companies deciding to prohibit carry at work,I think this is a pretty fair and reasonable ruling. The company is allowed ot prevent you from being armed on thier property, but only within reason. As an example I work in an office building in Ft Lauderdale, and while I grudginly agree that my employers propety rights, as well as the buildings owners propety rights, allow them to prohibit my carry within thier proprty, the parking lot is a defacto public space, and as such is not thier domain as far as it concerns my second amendment rights. At least, thats how I see it.
 
Actually, it was only a partial victory. The judge disagreed with the part about customers and visitors.
 
the parking lot is a defacto public space, and as such is not thier domain

Really? Who bought it, whose name is on the deed, and who pays the taxes on it?

Why is it that so many people seem to think that the only right that is absolute is your right to have a gun? Other people's right to control their own property don't just melt away because you have a gun.
 
I think it is public access that determines it is a public place. If you had a parking lot it is better for business to make it as accessible as possible to the public instead of imposing rules upon them they would need to read before parking. I think zoning has a big part to do with it.
 
I posted this a month ago, and if you read the court decision, it aligns pretty well with what I pointed out, concerning the private property argument:

There is a large body case law on this. The Takings Clause of the Fifth Amendment, made applicable to the States through the Fourteenth Amendment, provides that private property shall not be taken for public use without just compensation. The Takings Clause does not prohibit the taking of private property, but instead places a condition on the exercise of that power. It is designed not to limit the governmental interference with property rights per se, but rather to secure compensation in the event of otherwise proper interference amounting to a taking.

A "paradigmatic taking" is a direct government appropriation of private property. In addition to outright appropriation of property, the government may effect a taking through a regulation if it is so onerous that its effect is tantamount to a direct appropriation, this is known as "regulatory taking". see Lingle v. Chevron U.S.A., Inc., 544 U.S. 528 (2005).

In Lingle, the Supreme Court provided a framework for addressing regulatory takings. First, a court must determine if the regulation results in one of three types of "per se" regulatory takings. These occur (1) where a regulation requires an owner to suffer a "permanent physical invasion" of the property; or (2) where a regulation completely deprives an owner of "all economically beneficial uses" of the property; or (3) a government demands that a landowner dedicate an easement allowing public access to her property as a condition of obtaining a development permit.

This law (790.251) does not deprive owners of all economically beneficial uses of their property, but does result in an unwelcome physical invasion onto a business owner's property by individuals transporting and storing firearms in their vehicles. It is apparent the invasion onto an employers property is unwelcome if they have corporate policies preventing weapons on property. see Loretto v. Teleprompter Manhattan CATV Corporation, 458 U.S. 419(1982)

The Supreme Court first carved out the category of per se physical takings. In Loretto, the Court distinguished temporary physical "invasions" from permanent physical "occupations." The court ruled that an invasion is temporary, while an occupation is permanent.

A physical occupation, as defined by the Court, is a permanent and exclusive occupation by the government that destroys the owner's right to possession, use, and disposal of the property. see Boise Cascade Corp. v. United States, 296 F.3d 1339, 1353 (Fed. Cir. 2002)

The laws we are talking about here do not force any permanent "physical structure" on an owner's property. Instead, they force an unwanted physical invasion by third parties engaging in an unwanted activity. The invasion itself is not "permanent" because the individuals engaging in the unwanted activity (guns in cars) do not remain on the property at all times, as would an actual physical structure. Nor does this law cause a "permanent" invasion by the government with regard to a particular parcel of property, such as the public bike paths at issue in public easement cases. In those cases, even if no person ever chose to ride his bike across a public path, there is nevertheless governmental intrusion because that particular parcel of land is stripped of its right to exclude.

If no individuals choose to engage in the activity of storing firearms in vehicles, landowners will not suffer unwanted invasions. It is therefore hard to classify the invasion caused by this law as permanent for purposes of a takings analysis.
 
Florida Decision

YEA!!!

JACKSONVILLE, Fla. -- The National Rifle Association said a decision from a federal judge in Florida on Tuesday is a "huge win for the people."

The judge said Tuesday that employees who have concealed weapons permits can keep guns locked in their cars while they are at work in Florida.

The ruling upholds part of a state law that took effect earlier this month, which prevented employers from telling workers not to bring their guns.

NRA spokeswoman Marion Hammer said, "The problem has been corporate giants who think they can control everything their employees do or say or everything that goes on a piece of property."

"They are employers, they are property owners. They are not emperors," she said.

The NRA pushed for the law's passage in the last legislative session, citing the Second Amendment, which protects the rights of citizens to carry weapons.

The judge said businesses may prohibit customers -- as opposed to employees -- from bringing firearms onto their property.

The Florida Chamber of Commerce and the Florida Retail Federation had challenged the law -- as applied to both employees and customers.

The head of the retail federation says the ruling is a "pretty good decision" overall, even though it lets employees keep guns in their car.

A lawyer for the chamber said the split ruling "adds another layer of confusion to the law."

Copyright 2008 by The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
 
That's too bad. It is a shame that property owner's have consistently lost rights over the last 10 years.

In any case, the Florida law does exempt businesses that are licensed to deal in fireworks from having to allow guns on their property. So I expect fireworks sales may increase over the next few years as more stores carry them to avoid being forced by the government to allow guns on their private property.

Also, work is already underway to exempt other businesses that deal in dangerous materials, such as gasoline, chemicals, flammable liquids, etc. The hospital and medical association also hope to add radioactive materials to the list, which would thus allow exemption of most medical facilities. Hopefully we will be able to add enough exemptions to the law that it will really become irrelevant anyway.
 
That's too bad.

But gun owners gain 2nd Amendment rights. I wouldn't want to drive 15 miles through seedy areas without my weapon just because my employer won't allow it on the grounds. That's infringing MY rights. This is a parking lot we're talking about, not the buildings.

This follows a lot of states and institutions who have ruled a public road or parking area is just that - public.
 
That's too bad. It is a shame that property owner's have consistently lost rights over the last 10 years.

I can see both sides. On the one hand, property owners rights are important. On the other, for a majority of people a lot of their time spent outside the house and off the clock will be spent going to/from work. In other words, the times that they're most likely to need a gun outside their home they will be head to or from their place of employment...thus allowing employers to prevent permitholders from keeping their gun secured in their car can to a large extent nullify their permit.

And "just get another job" isn't an option, because (at least in my experience) most employers have these policies...so there quite simply aren't enough jobs available for everybody that would want to exercise this right. And people shouldn't have to compete to exercise their rights.

If, in the name of property owners' rights, we create a society in which the only time you're allowed to carry a gun is if you're just walking/driving in a circle from your house back to your house (or going to the range), we might as well do away with legal carry entirely.

EDIT: Note that I do recognize their right to restrict carry, by employees or customers, inside their buildings. Just not inside my car.
 
wouldn't want to drive 15 miles through seedy areas without my weapon just because my employer won't allow it on the grounds. That's infringing MY rights.

I disagree that there is any infringement of your rights. You voluntarily went to work for a company that forbids guns on their property. That means you voluntarily gave up your right to carry a weapon as a condition of employment.

There is nothing wrong with contractually agreeing to forego your rights.
 
I disagree that there is any infringement of your rights. You voluntarily went to work for a company that forbids guns on their property. That means you voluntarily gave up your right to carry a weapon as a condition of employment.

There is nothing wrong with contractually agreeing to forego your rights

See above. It's not entirely voluntary if there aren't enough jobs that allow it for everybody that would want their rights. At that point we just become modern-day serfs...because keeping your rights means starving.
 
See above. It's not entirely voluntary if there aren't enough jobs that allow it for everybody that would want their rights. At that point we just become modern-day serfs...because keeping your rights means starving.

+1 JuanCarlos!

I disagree that there is any infringement of your rights.

So, Unregistered, what company do YOU own/are president of that bans legal handguns from the premises?

If forced into a decision of no job or a job where my gun was prohibited, I know what I'd do. Better get those metal detectors up at the lot gate, Boss, 'cause it's coming in.
 
Actually, the "Castle Doctrine" may apply here. When occupying it, your auto may be considered your place of residence for purpose of defense.

The problem, though, was that you can't occupy it when you go into work.

Then again, at the same time, I'm generally not entirely comfortable with cars as a place to secure a firearm anyway. But again, when most people will spent a majority of their time away from home traveling to/from work, what else can you really do? Assuming, of course, that you support carry for the purpose of self-defense.
 
So, Unregistered, what company do YOU own/are president of that bans legal handguns from the premises?

I own my own business and do not have a policy against carrying on my property. I have about 25 employees. I don't know (or want to know) if they carry on my property, but I don't have a problem with it.

But I don't feel the government should force me to allow them to do it.
 
Can an employer "legally" search a car of an employee while that car is on company property? If he can't, why not? If the answer is that the employee has rights, then who is responsible for ensuring those rights are protected? Isn't it the government's job to protect those rights? So isn't the government then telling an employer what they can and cannot do on their own property? If an employer wants to find out if employees are using drugs or alcohol on the job, should the employer be able to search employees' cars for drugs or alcohol? What if an employee had a 12 pack in the trunk because he was going to a party after work, but the employer banned alcohol on the premises? Shouldn't the employer be able to search cars for alcohol then?

Do employers have to provide handicapped parking spaces for their employees? Is that a law? What if the employer doesn't have any handicapped employees? Couldn't a handicapped employee choose to get a job at a different company where the employer provides a handicapped parking spot?

The government is always telling us what we can and can't do with our own property. In this case, (Florida's law) it's to protect the rights of employees who have a permit to carry a gun. I don't see that as a bad thing, necessarily. They aren't forcing the employer to let the employees carry their guns into the buildings.

If an employer cannot "legally" search the cars of the employees, what good is it to say that you can't have a gun in your car on company property?
 
In any case, the Florida law does exempt businesses that are licensed to deal in fireworks from having to allow guns on their property.

WRONG. The law exempts a business that is licensed to manufacture, import or deal in explosives for resale or distribution on the property where the employee parking lot is located. Explosives include gunpowder (among other things). Disney's position is that since they are licensed to buy gunpowder as an ingredient of their fireworks, they are exempt. There are a few problems with that:

1 According to the Orange County Tax assessor's office, the area where the explosives are handled is a separate property from the theme parks, and from the employee parking lot.

2 Disney does not deal, import, or manufacture explosives as defined by federal law, because they do not resell or distribute the explosives. Once they are made into fireworks, they are not considered to be explosives under the law that is controlling here.
 
Do employers have to provide handicapped parking spaces for their employees? Is that a law?
Yes, it's a federal law.

What if the employer doesn't have any handicapped employees?
Their public/visitor parking area must have a certain percentage of spaces designated "handicapped". If a company hires a handicapped person, they must provide a handicapped parking spot.

Couldn't a handicapped employee choose to get a job at a different company where the employer provides a handicapped parking spot?
The handicapped, like any other, may seek employment wherever they choose, and not be discriminated against for their handicap.

I'm having trouble seeing where this is a parallel situation.
 
Back
Top