First load workup AR15 223, opinions?

A

arpcentralone

New member
Please look at these primers and groups. I noticed the primers from the reloads are a lot flatter than factory. Here is my load data:

Platform:
Palmetto Multi-15
1:7 twist

Ammunition:
Factory
Federal 55g FMJ (value pack 100)

Reloads:
55g FMJBT (midway bulk) (weighed and selected all of 54.9g)
CFE 223 powder (25g, 26g, 26.5g, 27g)
CCI 400 primers
COAL 2.200
Case trimmed to 1.750

Target distance 35 yards
primers.jpg
group.jpg

Thanks in advance!
Greg
 
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I believe the tighter 25g and the 27g vs the 26 and 26.5 is possibly due to the barrel harmonics, and loads between aren't suited. I am probably wrong, but it might explain why they tightened up when it got hotter.
 
Half grain jump is kinda big for 223. You may be missing an accuracy node. 27gr looks good but try +or -.2 from there and see how it goes. Your primers look fine from what I can tell.
 
Alright, I am going to load some more tonight 27 +/- .2 grain and see how they land tomorrow. I really liked the 25 grain load, as it was much quieter, less recoil, cheaper in the long run and still accurate. I will load some of those +/- .2 as well and see. I will post my findings afterward. Thanks for looking at those primers also, they just seem edged out to me, especially when I get hotter. Some have said that 27.5 is a great load for the CFE 223 powder. Going to try that too.
 
Are you pretty set on the CFE powder....I have always had really good luck with H4198...and with a 1-7 twist you might want to try a heavier bullet....maybe a 62-69gr

I would think at 25yrds you should be seeing a ragged hole...so when you stretch it out it won't open up to much

I have been using the hornady ELD 52gr bullets in my ar...at 50yrds it makes a ragged hole...at 100 it is around 5/8 group if I do my part

I like to use 50 yrds as my gage...if I can't get a really good group at 50 its not going to be better at 100...

Just some thoughts

Ocharry
 
You are exactly right. I haven't tried any other powder yet, as this is my first reload. It is very possible that, even though this is at a bench rest, user error may also be affecting my grouping. I know the 1:7 is great for heavier, longer bullets, but this is what I ordered before learning my rifle. Also, I'm using a simmons red dot, so there isn't any nice optics. It's hard to see that little target farther than that. This is my defensive rifle for home use, and I likely won't need it farther than 35 yards, but it's an option once I find a decent scope. Not really sure what range to expect with a 16" barrel.
 
I suspect the fast twist in combination with the short and light bulk grade bullet is working against you. The 7" twist is designed for stabilizing the M856 tracer, which is almost a quarter inch longer than the M855 bullet it flies with, is therefore light relative to its length, and that makes the fast twist necessary to stabilize it. You can stabilize a more dense 190 grain match bullet with it. The heavier match grade bullets will tend to be more accurate with it, both because they have better mass symmetry, longer bearing surface to resist even slight in-bore tilt, and leave slower and at fewer rpm's. But there goes your recoil advantage.
 
Hmmm....I think....just me....I would get some kind of glass on it to do my testing....dont think you would need to spend a lot....$50-100 scope...do your load testing...get something worked up that shoots good at say 50yrds....once you get where you want to be put your red dot back on and line it up for what ever distance you want

For me a red dot doesn't work for load development.... But for close in fast work they are fine

My rifle has 1-8 twist....the 52gr bullets work really well....I use it for coyotes...they dont like those little bullets to good though

With that 1-7 barrel you might get it to shoot 55gr bullets OK ...but like unclenick said its prolly gona like heavier bullets....for longer ranges.....inside 50 yrds or in your house....ooooh that's gona be loud....it prolly won't make much difference

If you have never shot a rifle inside an enclosed building..... Or house....MAKE SURE you have hearing protection on....lol...short barrel...inside house....bad bad....oh my bad....not like TV

Ocharry
 
Haha, yeah, I won't go into details, but I know what is sounds like indoors... :rolleyes: I guess I just like to shoot it. I'm def going to get a set of optics for it now. Any suggestions?
 
Gear the load for the intended use... if it's home defense, the main qualifier is reliability... accuracy is down the list. Yes, the 1:7 is probably not helping, I originally loaded 55grn FMJ for my 1:7 H-bar, not understanding the significance of twist rate, and accuracy was not good at 100yds... and I didn't understand why. Now I do, so it gets 69grn bullets and all is well.

Not trying to derail the thread, but unless you live in the boonies, I would either find something better for home defense (12ga) or tailor your ammo to prevent overpenetration... something like frangible bullets.
 
Yes, I have plenty to learn. I'm going to wait on more loads until I learn more about my rifle. Thank you all for the great info and advise!
 
Got some optics!

Alright, put a scope on, using:
UTG 3-12X44 30mm Compact Scope

Firstly, this scope is not a bank breaker, and stays put shot after shot on the ar platform. A little long, but the clearances aren't too bad. Love the parallax adjust on it. Locking rings keep'er from gettin knocked out of adjustment. Overall, very pleased.

Now, to the data:
Factory loads get me in the 1/4" group at 40 yards, hand loads get me about 1/8" at same distance. I think I have found my new loads for this bugger. Going to try a farther range, possibly 100 or better. Any suggestions on range? Decided not to use as a home defense firearm but more as a range toy/target buster. Thanks for all the great input!
 
Charlie_98 said:
Gear the load for the intended use... if it's home defense, the main qualifier is reliability... accuracy is down the list. Yes, the 1:7 is probably not helping, I originally loaded 55grn FMJ for my 1:7 H-bar, not understanding the significance of twist rate, and accuracy was not good at 100yds... and I didn't understand why. Now I do, so it gets 69grn bullets and all is well.

Not trying to derail the thread, but unless you live in the boonies, I would either find something better for home defense (12ga) or tailor your ammo to prevent overpenetration... something like frangible bullets.
Click to expand...
Yes, I do live in the boonies, with approx 1-1.5 mile visibility in most directions. ;)
 
I would go with the CCI 450 primer which has a slightly thicker cup to accommodate for the AR's floating firing pin. Probably unnecessary but that was the way I was taught to do it so I do. I have never heard of anyone getting a slam fire for using a non 450 but it the 450's work well for me so I use them.
 
If you discount the furthest out as a flier, looks like you found two nearly identical groups.
I assume this is a 16" barrel since Palmetto sells short barrel about 10:1 over 20" barrels...?

I know this starts a HUGE crap fight every time, but if you have the reduced diameter barrel (M4 undercut for grenade launcher mount) you will probably find there are more loads it doesn't like than likes. The reason is barrel harmonics.
Also be aware that Palmetto has a wide open gas system 99% of the time, slower loads won't chronograph at what you expect, and the rifle might have issues with hotter loads.
 
arpcentralone wrote:
CFE 223 powder (25g, 26g, 26.5g, 27g)
Click to expand...

Increments of a half- or a full-grain are really too wide for you to learn anything about accuracy. It will lead you to blame everything on extraneous factors like primers, case length, seating depth, etc., rather than the fact the "rungs" on the "ladder" were too far apart to provide meaningful data. Try again and go up in 0.2 grain or 0.3 grain. increments and see what your results are.
 
hdwhit said:
Increments of a half- or a full-grain are really too wide for you to learn anything about accuracy. It will lead you to blame everything on extraneous factors like primers, case length, seating depth, etc., rather than the fact the "rungs" on the "ladder" were too far apart to provide meaningful data. Try again and go up in 0.2 grain or 0.3 grain. increments and see what your results are.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I already concluded that from researching ladder load workup processes. I had to wait to get some heavier bullets before I attempted a workup for this platform utilizing the 1/7 twist ratio. I am currently trying some 68g and 75g Hornady BTHP's and using the smaller increments for the workups.
 
Those 75gr bthp will shoot! I have run them through every single 223 Me and any of my friends own. Lc brass 24gr varget 75gr bthp cci 400. Moa or better even in a friend's psa freedom upper. They shoot .3 moa in my spr
 
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