I have done some reading and what i have found out is, I have a 1860 ARMY, made in 1984. I bought a few things from a guy and this was one of the items. I have already torn gun apart and made a list of the broken parts needed to fire this gun. When I got this gun, it had a newer barrrel and cylinder, because previous owner bought a gun show and said they were in nice condition. So my first question is, i put the original barrel and clylinder back on and now i am not able to push the wedge all the way in. If i push it as hard as i can with my finger, it binds up the cylinder and it will not spin. Where the barrel meets up to the frame, it is very tight and correct fit. It looks as if the base pin needs to be pulled out slightly???? I have no idea what the right way to go about this is? Also, the cylinder does not slide over the base pin very smoothly. Wondering if I should just add a base pin to my list of things to order? If it might be a good idea to replace it, how do you remove the base pin? I do see that there is a a barrel pin, to help keep the base pin aligned, but the barrel pin looks like it can only be driven in when the hammer is pulled back.... I hope I have explained this correct. Any help would be greatly appreciated!!! One last add to my problem...the easiest way to put it, the wedge seems to be to wide and would need to be filed down. I just doubt that is the correct fix though.......
First BP Gun & need HELP
- Thread starter bear108
- Start date
Well, something IS wrong if the forcing cone of the barrel binds up against the cylinder as bear108 tells us. Regardless of how hard he pushes the wedge, it should not make the cone touch the cylinder. It should wedge between the front of the arbor wedge-cutout and the back of the barrel cutout, and that´s it.
The main concern here is most likely a mismatch of manufactures between the parts. You say that the barrel and cylinders (that are causing the problems) aren´t original to the gun. Now, with the tiny amount of information you provide us, that COULD meen that the frame is Uberti and the barrel/cylinder is Pietta.
The fact that the cylinder is a bit tight on the arbor also points in this direction.
Replica parts from different manufacturers are not interchangeable with each other, and parts from replicas won´t neccessarily interchange with original Colt parts either.
Even if you get the barrel and cylinder fitted to the frame with a bit of work, chances are that the gun won´t time well and that cylinder will lock up slightly out of battery.
Do you have the original barrel and cylinder for the gun (including the original wedge)? If so, does the gun function properly with those parts?
Edit: I misread the part of which parts made the gun not function or fit together. That said, what I write above is true nonetheless. If the original do not fit the gun, they are either not original, or the frame and/or arbor is no longer in their original configuration.
Anders Olsson
The main concern here is most likely a mismatch of manufactures between the parts. You say that the barrel and cylinders (that are causing the problems) aren´t original to the gun. Now, with the tiny amount of information you provide us, that COULD meen that the frame is Uberti and the barrel/cylinder is Pietta.
The fact that the cylinder is a bit tight on the arbor also points in this direction.
Replica parts from different manufacturers are not interchangeable with each other, and parts from replicas won´t neccessarily interchange with original Colt parts either.
Even if you get the barrel and cylinder fitted to the frame with a bit of work, chances are that the gun won´t time well and that cylinder will lock up slightly out of battery.
Do you have the original barrel and cylinder for the gun (including the original wedge)? If so, does the gun function properly with those parts?
Edit: I misread the part of which parts made the gun not function or fit together. That said, what I write above is true nonetheless. If the original do not fit the gun, they are either not original, or the frame and/or arbor is no longer in their original configuration.
Anders Olsson
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Swede on a lot of guns the arbor hole is drilled too deep and yes if the wedge is driven in too deep it will bind the cylinder. If the wedge is going in sideways it's probably because the wedge slot isn't lining up. as Swede says if the barrel and cylinder are from a different manufacturer that may be the problem.
Yes, different brand parts differ in dimension, that includes barrelwedges.
Still, if you by applying thumbpressure (albeit hard thumbpressure) on the wedge can make the forceingcone of the barrel bind against the front of the cylinder as you implied in your original post, then the wedge is only a very minor part of the problem.
Please see my edit in previous post.
Regards!
Anders Olsson
Still, if you by applying thumbpressure (albeit hard thumbpressure) on the wedge can make the forceingcone of the barrel bind against the front of the cylinder as you implied in your original post, then the wedge is only a very minor part of the problem.
Please see my edit in previous post.
Regards!
Anders Olsson
Hawg, we are posting around each other here!
Okey, I have never encountered that problem. I should confess that my main experience with percussion revolvers are with the original/antique ones. If in good condition, they are immensely more well put together than even the best replicas, and troubleshooting is usually a breeze because you know what part should line up or align where and why..
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That said, I have had a few replica ones, and I have handled and helped out with a lot more belonging to shooting buddies.
Not saying that you are wrong though Hawg! But it seems absurd that the barrel to arbor to frame fit would be so loose and/or sloppy that by applying just thumbpressure on the wedge, you could push the cone all the way back against the front of the cylinder. Even without the wedge in place, the barrel should be a very tight and slopfree fit against the frame when pushed all the way back towards the frame to barrel joint.
Anders Olsson
Okey, I have never encountered that problem. I should confess that my main experience with percussion revolvers are with the original/antique ones. If in good condition, they are immensely more well put together than even the best replicas, and troubleshooting is usually a breeze because you know what part should line up or align where and why..
. That said, I have had a few replica ones, and I have handled and helped out with a lot more belonging to shooting buddies.
Not saying that you are wrong though Hawg! But it seems absurd that the barrel to arbor to frame fit would be so loose and/or sloppy that by applying just thumbpressure on the wedge, you could push the cone all the way back against the front of the cylinder. Even without the wedge in place, the barrel should be a very tight and slopfree fit against the frame when pushed all the way back towards the frame to barrel joint.
Anders Olsson
Okey, if the arbor hole in the barrel is too wide, than I can see how the barrel could pivot enough up-down to bind against the cylinder (on a gun with a very tight cylindergap).
Still does not explain why the original cylinder does not "slide smoothly" on the original arbor though, at least if we read that as if the cylinder is too tight on the arbor and needs some force to go on.
Could the arbor be slightly bent? That could explain both the forceing cone binding against the front of the cylinder and the cylinder binding on the arbor.
I am grasping at straws here, because I just can´t understand how all these problems could come from just a badly fitted wedge.
Anders Olsson
Still does not explain why the original cylinder does not "slide smoothly" on the original arbor though, at least if we read that as if the cylinder is too tight on the arbor and needs some force to go on.
Could the arbor be slightly bent? That could explain both the forceing cone binding against the front of the cylinder and the cylinder binding on the arbor.
I am grasping at straws here, because I just can´t understand how all these problems could come from just a badly fitted wedge.
Anders Olsson
Bill Akins
New member
I'm with the rest of the fellows here in that we don't have enough info or pictures to be able to make a total diagnosis. But if when the wedge is properly inserted it makes the forcing cone too tight to the cylinder.....there is a quick fix for that. Simply make a thin shim that goes over the two pins where the barrel meets the frame. Make the shim so that the shim conforms with the same shape of the barrel/frame in that area so you don't see any gap or crack between the barrel to frame. That will give you the proper barrel to cylinder gap clearance.
If you are working with mis matched brand parts, that might be the best and easiest way to fix it. And if your gun is blue, just blue the shim and you won't even hardly notice it is there. Just have to remember not to lose it when disassembling the revolver for cleaning. You could probably make a shim out of an automotive feeler gauge. Just pick up one of those automotive feeler gauges that have various thickness feeler gauges in one folding pocket unit from a place like Harbor Freight where they are cheap.
That way if you make one that is too thick or too thin, you have plenty more feeler gauges in the unit to use until you get just the right thickness shim. What I would do to test for which thickness feeler gauge to use....would be to slide the feeler gauge in the middle or on one side of the barrel to frame by the two pins. Then insert the wedge and see how your barrel to cylinder gap is then. Of course using the shim would throw off how your wedge fits and likely make your wedge tighter. But you could file the wedge to fit. Wedges are cheap.
Given the info you've given us so far, that's what I'd do to fix it. Quick and easy. Just a set of cheap folding feeler gauges you use as a shim and drill two holes in the shim/feeler gauge (to go over the pins) then file and adapt it to fit between the barrel and frame and then blue the shim and then file your wedge til it fits properly and re-blue it.
Regarding your cylinder kind of binding when it goes on the arbor pin. Check for burrs of raised metal around the wedge slot in the arbor. If you find any knock them off with a fine jewelers file. Often times from a previous owner not understanding how the wedge works, they will hammer the wedge in all the way causing the metal to rise around the edges of the arbor's wedge slot and even around the edge of the wedge slot in the barrel too. As others have stated, the wedge only goes in to where the tip of the wedge's little spring comes out the other side. That is the proper fit. If your cylinder binds going over the arbor's wedge slot but slides on freely after it passes past the arbor's wedge slot, what I stated is probably the binding problem.
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If you are working with mis matched brand parts, that might be the best and easiest way to fix it. And if your gun is blue, just blue the shim and you won't even hardly notice it is there. Just have to remember not to lose it when disassembling the revolver for cleaning. You could probably make a shim out of an automotive feeler gauge. Just pick up one of those automotive feeler gauges that have various thickness feeler gauges in one folding pocket unit from a place like Harbor Freight where they are cheap.
That way if you make one that is too thick or too thin, you have plenty more feeler gauges in the unit to use until you get just the right thickness shim. What I would do to test for which thickness feeler gauge to use....would be to slide the feeler gauge in the middle or on one side of the barrel to frame by the two pins. Then insert the wedge and see how your barrel to cylinder gap is then. Of course using the shim would throw off how your wedge fits and likely make your wedge tighter. But you could file the wedge to fit. Wedges are cheap.
Given the info you've given us so far, that's what I'd do to fix it. Quick and easy. Just a set of cheap folding feeler gauges you use as a shim and drill two holes in the shim/feeler gauge (to go over the pins) then file and adapt it to fit between the barrel and frame and then blue the shim and then file your wedge til it fits properly and re-blue it.
Regarding your cylinder kind of binding when it goes on the arbor pin. Check for burrs of raised metal around the wedge slot in the arbor. If you find any knock them off with a fine jewelers file. Often times from a previous owner not understanding how the wedge works, they will hammer the wedge in all the way causing the metal to rise around the edges of the arbor's wedge slot and even around the edge of the wedge slot in the barrel too. As others have stated, the wedge only goes in to where the tip of the wedge's little spring comes out the other side. That is the proper fit. If your cylinder binds going over the arbor's wedge slot but slides on freely after it passes past the arbor's wedge slot, what I stated is probably the binding problem.
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Please nobody get mad at me here. Is the wedge being inserted from the left side of the barrel with the screw above the slot in the barrel? Just want to be sure that is clear.
Burrs on the wedge cutout slot can bind the barrel and make it difficult to slide over the cylinder pin (I'm assuming "base pin" means arbor or cylinder pin). Dressing any burrs may help. A couple of my Colt repros need a little rotating and squeezing to get the barrels onto the cylinder pin but never the cylinder itself.
I have also bought replacement wedges that were too thick to use and wouldn't fit ASM, Pietta or Uberti Colt Armies or Navies.
The cheap Harbor Freight feeler gauge shim idea is brilliant.
Burrs on the wedge cutout slot can bind the barrel and make it difficult to slide over the cylinder pin (I'm assuming "base pin" means arbor or cylinder pin). Dressing any burrs may help. A couple of my Colt repros need a little rotating and squeezing to get the barrels onto the cylinder pin but never the cylinder itself.
I have also bought replacement wedges that were too thick to use and wouldn't fit ASM, Pietta or Uberti Colt Armies or Navies.
The cheap Harbor Freight feeler gauge shim idea is brilliant.
Bill Akins
New member
I don't think a thin feeler gauge/shim would look "funny". If fitted properly it would be hardly noticeable squeezed in tightly between the barrel and frame and blued to match the rest of the revolver.
There are various reasons I suggested it.
1. It would be quick and easy and get the revolver shooting right away.
2. Since he may have another brand barrel mismatched to his frame,
it would be better to use a shim rather than to permanently alter his
forcing cone on the barrel by filing it down to effect the same clearance
the shim would do. Plus you know the feeler gauge/shim is the same thickness across, whereas if he hand filed the forcing cone, there is the probability that he may not file it exactly straight and then his barrel to cylinder gap would not be uniform across.
3. If he DID file the forcing cone to get more barrel to cylinder gap clearance and thus permanently altered the barrel's forcing cone just to fit the other brand frame, he likely could never use that brand barrel with the same original brand frame the barrel originally matched ever again because he would have increased the gap too much. It would be permanently altered just to fit that other brand frame.
4. By using a variety of feeler gauges to test which one would be the best thickness for clearance, he could experiment until he found the exact clearance fit he needed. If he thought a particular gauge was the right one but then found out it wasn't.....no problem, he just uses a different feeler gauge until he gets the right one he needs for clearance. Whereas if he filed the forcing cone, not only does he permanently alter the barrel, but he might file a bit too much on the forcing cone and then he is in a pickle. Better to experiment with the feeler gauges that are easily replaceable than to alter his forcing cone by filing and thus make it unusable to the original brand frame the barrel originally matched and also possibly file too much metal off the forcing cone.
Shims are easily replaceable, filing too much metal off a forcing cone isn't an easy reversible fix. The only way to fix that would be to file that area of the barrel that matches up to the pins on the frame to decrease the barrel to cylinder gap again. And unless a person has a mill to do an absolutely straight trim, that area would then likely have an ill fit if filed by hand. Then that WOULD look "funny". Even with my mill, I'd hate to have to do that.
Like I said, if I was in his situation with one brand barrel trying to fit to another brand frame and my barrel to cylinder gap was too tight, I'd shim between the barrel to frame as I described using feeler gauges filed to fit the contours of the barrel to frame junction and drilled to fit over the two pins. MOST IMPORTANTLY, it's always completely reversible by simply removing the shim. Then if you ever wanted to, you could use that brand barrel with the same original brand frame from another gun if you wanted to because the barrel remains unaltered.
I would advise drilling the feeler gauge/shim to fit over the pins first before filing it to fit the contours of the barrel to frame junction. It would be much harder to work with if he contoured the feeler gauge/shim first by filing it down and then tried to drill it because it would be smaller and harder to work with to drill the two holes to fit over the pins.
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There are various reasons I suggested it.
1. It would be quick and easy and get the revolver shooting right away.
2. Since he may have another brand barrel mismatched to his frame,
it would be better to use a shim rather than to permanently alter his
forcing cone on the barrel by filing it down to effect the same clearance
the shim would do. Plus you know the feeler gauge/shim is the same thickness across, whereas if he hand filed the forcing cone, there is the probability that he may not file it exactly straight and then his barrel to cylinder gap would not be uniform across.
3. If he DID file the forcing cone to get more barrel to cylinder gap clearance and thus permanently altered the barrel's forcing cone just to fit the other brand frame, he likely could never use that brand barrel with the same original brand frame the barrel originally matched ever again because he would have increased the gap too much. It would be permanently altered just to fit that other brand frame.
4. By using a variety of feeler gauges to test which one would be the best thickness for clearance, he could experiment until he found the exact clearance fit he needed. If he thought a particular gauge was the right one but then found out it wasn't.....no problem, he just uses a different feeler gauge until he gets the right one he needs for clearance. Whereas if he filed the forcing cone, not only does he permanently alter the barrel, but he might file a bit too much on the forcing cone and then he is in a pickle. Better to experiment with the feeler gauges that are easily replaceable than to alter his forcing cone by filing and thus make it unusable to the original brand frame the barrel originally matched and also possibly file too much metal off the forcing cone.
Shims are easily replaceable, filing too much metal off a forcing cone isn't an easy reversible fix. The only way to fix that would be to file that area of the barrel that matches up to the pins on the frame to decrease the barrel to cylinder gap again. And unless a person has a mill to do an absolutely straight trim, that area would then likely have an ill fit if filed by hand. Then that WOULD look "funny". Even with my mill, I'd hate to have to do that.
Like I said, if I was in his situation with one brand barrel trying to fit to another brand frame and my barrel to cylinder gap was too tight, I'd shim between the barrel to frame as I described using feeler gauges filed to fit the contours of the barrel to frame junction and drilled to fit over the two pins. MOST IMPORTANTLY, it's always completely reversible by simply removing the shim. Then if you ever wanted to, you could use that brand barrel with the same original brand frame from another gun if you wanted to because the barrel remains unaltered.
I would advise drilling the feeler gauge/shim to fit over the pins first before filing it to fit the contours of the barrel to frame junction. It would be much harder to work with if he contoured the feeler gauge/shim first by filing it down and then tried to drill it because it would be smaller and harder to work with to drill the two holes to fit over the pins.
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Bill, I hear what you are saying, and it IS easy enough to do that it may be worth trying. However, the barrel and cylinder he is experiencing problems with are (according to his own words) the ORIGINAL barrel and cylinder to the frame.
If I´m reading bear108 correctly, the previous owner of the gun has fitted another brand cylinder and barrel to the gun. Bear is trying to use the barrel and cylinder that came with the gun from the factory.
Bear hasn´t told us whether these extra parts were included with the gun when he bought it, and whether they actually fit and function properly with the gun, which would be an important piece of information.
Bear is trying to make the gun function with the original parts, and is having no success.
If your fix works Bill, then all the better. If it doesn´t there´s no real harm in having tried it (bear would only be out a shim and a wedge, and the wedge doesn´t seem to be correct anyway). But from all that bear has told us, I have a strong suspicion that to make the replacement parts work on the gun, the previous owner has made som modifications to one or more of the following areas of the gun:
1. Wedgeslot in the arbor filed larger OR welded and filed to a smaller dimension.
2. Wedgeslot in the barrel filed larger (unlikely to have been welded as this would be easy to see even for an untrained eye)
3. Used a different size wedge
4. Possibly backed the barrel by filing off some metal at the barrel to frame joint.
To this, we can add any damage or wear that a inproperly fitted or improperly inserted wedge could do (or result in from shooting), such as burrs or even a slight distortion in the arbors front portion where the wedgeslot is located.
First thing on the agenda for bear108 would be to get the correct wedge for the make of revolver he actually has. Uberti for Uberti, Pietta for Pietta and so on. Even then, you can´t be certain of a perfect fit, since:
A. the gun was made in 1984 and changes could have been made in the dimensions used in the factory
B. Dimensions could have changed from normal wear, and certainly would have changed if the previous owner did make modifications to fit the replacement barrel and cylinder.
But still, if unable to let an experienced person actually have a hands on look at the gun (which would be the best thing), a replacement wedge from the correct manufacturer should be first on the list of things to look into.
In other words, I am afraid that chances are that it isn´t as simple as replacing the wedge, but it is a good place to start.
Regards!
Anders Olsson
If I´m reading bear108 correctly, the previous owner of the gun has fitted another brand cylinder and barrel to the gun. Bear is trying to use the barrel and cylinder that came with the gun from the factory.
Bear hasn´t told us whether these extra parts were included with the gun when he bought it, and whether they actually fit and function properly with the gun, which would be an important piece of information.
Bear is trying to make the gun function with the original parts, and is having no success.
If your fix works Bill, then all the better. If it doesn´t there´s no real harm in having tried it (bear would only be out a shim and a wedge, and the wedge doesn´t seem to be correct anyway). But from all that bear has told us, I have a strong suspicion that to make the replacement parts work on the gun, the previous owner has made som modifications to one or more of the following areas of the gun:
1. Wedgeslot in the arbor filed larger OR welded and filed to a smaller dimension.
2. Wedgeslot in the barrel filed larger (unlikely to have been welded as this would be easy to see even for an untrained eye)
3. Used a different size wedge
4. Possibly backed the barrel by filing off some metal at the barrel to frame joint.
To this, we can add any damage or wear that a inproperly fitted or improperly inserted wedge could do (or result in from shooting), such as burrs or even a slight distortion in the arbors front portion where the wedgeslot is located.
First thing on the agenda for bear108 would be to get the correct wedge for the make of revolver he actually has. Uberti for Uberti, Pietta for Pietta and so on. Even then, you can´t be certain of a perfect fit, since:
A. the gun was made in 1984 and changes could have been made in the dimensions used in the factory
B. Dimensions could have changed from normal wear, and certainly would have changed if the previous owner did make modifications to fit the replacement barrel and cylinder.
But still, if unable to let an experienced person actually have a hands on look at the gun (which would be the best thing), a replacement wedge from the correct manufacturer should be first on the list of things to look into.
In other words, I am afraid that chances are that it isn´t as simple as replacing the wedge, but it is a good place to start.
Regards!
Anders Olsson
I understand about how far the wedge is suppose to go in, it is just to tight. I do believe that filing down the side of the wedge is the way to go. I do have the orginal barrel and cylinder on the gun now, but I honestly think that the wedge is not the orginal one with gun. I know all about the feeler gauges and that sounds like a great plan. Thank you all so much for all of ur imput. I just wanted to make sure that the route I go with, wouldn't damage gun or cause a firing issue. Thank you all again!!!!!