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Fireforming
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I can tell you how I did it. Thats not quite the same as telling you how to do it.
I won't be there wth you and I have no control over what you do.
You are on your own. You assume all risk. The following is not a set of instructions. I'm telling you what I did.
Virgin brass has not been work hardened. The necks are less likely to split.
I use Cream of Wheat. Nothing else will do. Not corn meal.
I use Bullseye. Its very quick. Quick pressure is needed.
NO BULLET IS USED!! Using a bullet will likely blow something up.
I use enough loading blocks to hold all the rounds vertical.
I use a powder funnel to fill the cases.
I made a powder dipper for the Bullseye.
Now some background. If we were loading ammunition to shoot bullets ,we woud be quite careful about charge weight. We would want to control it to 0.2 tenths of a grain or so.
This is a little different. Only Cream of Wheat will create the back pressure.
Some place,maybe 30 years ago,I read a guideline on "How much?" Bullseye to use.
The sugestion was to start with about 10% of a normal charge for that cartridge. Example= 50 gr or so for normal 30-06 loads with typical rifle powder for 30-06.
So 10% would be 5 grains. Thats ok for a start,but I did not get complete results. I gradually incrased the Bullseye (and my dipper) till I got good looking 35 Whelen brass. That was a long time ago,but my memory says 7 grains. Fwiw,I made my dippers out of hard maple and drilled the cavities. I could hand turn the drill bit to increase the dipper capacity till I got results.
I will say if I did not get good results by the time I reached 20%.or 10 gr of Bullseye,I would stop. Explore another method,which would be a tapered arbor die.
This decision was not based on any science ,testing,or measurement. I cannot verify it. Its the "Boundaries of caution and pucker factor" Thats what I did.
OK. I primed my virgin brass. I put one dipper of Bullseye in the case, and then filled the case till up in the neck with Cream of Wheat using a powder funnel.. Some methods are less messy than others. I think I made another dipper. The bench powder measure I use to dispense powder might work. I did not do that.
The end goal is a case full of Cream of Wheat sitting on top of a small charge of Bullseye. The loading block and bench covered in C.O.W mess is not the goal.
If I had loaded 100 at 5 grains of Bullseye, they would not have fully formed and I'd have a mess. I increased the charge gradually till I had a charge weight that worked. That figured out,I loaded a bunch.
Then I took the full loading blocks to a safe place to fire them.
I did not have to worry about bullets,but explaining it all to Law Enforcement could be an awkward moment. I chose a place where the sound of gunfire does not result in law enforcement response.
OK Its an option to put a little ball of toilet paper as a stopper in the neck. It helps prevent the C.O.W. from escaping.
I was doing this in a 1903A3 Springfield action. Obviously,filling the magazine was not going to work. Forcing the controlled round feed hook extractor to snap over was not the best idea.
So,the gymnastics amounted to pulling the bolt,snapping the cartridge in the bolt face,and,muzzle up,re-inserting the bolt in the rifle.
All that done,go bang,and inspect your nice piece of 35 Whelen brass.
Now, this method gave me beautiful concentric necks and shoulders,and uniform neck wall thickness. Just jamming 30-06 brass into a 35 Whelen sizing die resulted in spindle deflection, case necks thin on one side,and odd,off center shoulders.
But fire forming wth C.O.W. IS a pain in the butt.
Later,to make 40-70 Sharps Brass out of 30-40 by the C.O.W. process (blowing it out straightwall) I turned up an insert out of an old take off barrel to have the outside dimnsions of a 12 ga shell,then chambered the insert with the 40-70 reamer I made.
It was a lot easier to use that chamber insert with an old singleshot shotgun to fire form the ammo.
I did all this and got good results. It was a pain in the butt. I have done my best to answer your question without giving a lot of advice about "What you should do"
A brother built some AR rifle where he is necking up 6mm Benchrest brass to 6.5. I do not know which brand it is,but some reloading die company makes a die with a rigid tapered expander spindle...or maybe he just found a spindle/arbor to buy.
He is getting excellent results.
Good luck!! I liked my 35 Whelen. It was fun to shoot.
I won't be there wth you and I have no control over what you do.
You are on your own. You assume all risk. The following is not a set of instructions. I'm telling you what I did.
Virgin brass has not been work hardened. The necks are less likely to split.
I use Cream of Wheat. Nothing else will do. Not corn meal.
I use Bullseye. Its very quick. Quick pressure is needed.
NO BULLET IS USED!! Using a bullet will likely blow something up.
I use enough loading blocks to hold all the rounds vertical.
I use a powder funnel to fill the cases.
I made a powder dipper for the Bullseye.
Now some background. If we were loading ammunition to shoot bullets ,we woud be quite careful about charge weight. We would want to control it to 0.2 tenths of a grain or so.
This is a little different. Only Cream of Wheat will create the back pressure.
Some place,maybe 30 years ago,I read a guideline on "How much?" Bullseye to use.
The sugestion was to start with about 10% of a normal charge for that cartridge. Example= 50 gr or so for normal 30-06 loads with typical rifle powder for 30-06.
So 10% would be 5 grains. Thats ok for a start,but I did not get complete results. I gradually incrased the Bullseye (and my dipper) till I got good looking 35 Whelen brass. That was a long time ago,but my memory says 7 grains. Fwiw,I made my dippers out of hard maple and drilled the cavities. I could hand turn the drill bit to increase the dipper capacity till I got results.
I will say if I did not get good results by the time I reached 20%.or 10 gr of Bullseye,I would stop. Explore another method,which would be a tapered arbor die.
This decision was not based on any science ,testing,or measurement. I cannot verify it. Its the "Boundaries of caution and pucker factor" Thats what I did.
OK. I primed my virgin brass. I put one dipper of Bullseye in the case, and then filled the case till up in the neck with Cream of Wheat using a powder funnel.. Some methods are less messy than others. I think I made another dipper. The bench powder measure I use to dispense powder might work. I did not do that.
The end goal is a case full of Cream of Wheat sitting on top of a small charge of Bullseye. The loading block and bench covered in C.O.W mess is not the goal.
If I had loaded 100 at 5 grains of Bullseye, they would not have fully formed and I'd have a mess. I increased the charge gradually till I had a charge weight that worked. That figured out,I loaded a bunch.
Then I took the full loading blocks to a safe place to fire them.
I did not have to worry about bullets,but explaining it all to Law Enforcement could be an awkward moment. I chose a place where the sound of gunfire does not result in law enforcement response.
OK Its an option to put a little ball of toilet paper as a stopper in the neck. It helps prevent the C.O.W. from escaping.
I was doing this in a 1903A3 Springfield action. Obviously,filling the magazine was not going to work. Forcing the controlled round feed hook extractor to snap over was not the best idea.
So,the gymnastics amounted to pulling the bolt,snapping the cartridge in the bolt face,and,muzzle up,re-inserting the bolt in the rifle.
All that done,go bang,and inspect your nice piece of 35 Whelen brass.
Now, this method gave me beautiful concentric necks and shoulders,and uniform neck wall thickness. Just jamming 30-06 brass into a 35 Whelen sizing die resulted in spindle deflection, case necks thin on one side,and odd,off center shoulders.
But fire forming wth C.O.W. IS a pain in the butt.
Later,to make 40-70 Sharps Brass out of 30-40 by the C.O.W. process (blowing it out straightwall) I turned up an insert out of an old take off barrel to have the outside dimnsions of a 12 ga shell,then chambered the insert with the 40-70 reamer I made.
It was a lot easier to use that chamber insert with an old singleshot shotgun to fire form the ammo.
I did all this and got good results. It was a pain in the butt. I have done my best to answer your question without giving a lot of advice about "What you should do"
A brother built some AR rifle where he is necking up 6mm Benchrest brass to 6.5. I do not know which brand it is,but some reloading die company makes a die with a rigid tapered expander spindle...or maybe he just found a spindle/arbor to buy.
He is getting excellent results.
Good luck!! I liked my 35 Whelen. It was fun to shoot.
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I too have fire formed brass....mine was 250 savage to 250 AI
Mr. HIBC was very helpful to me...his method worked flawlessly
I did use 296 for my powder...I'm thinking I ended up around 8gr...i did sneek up on that. I think i started with 5gr with 1 case and then went to 6 ending with the 8gr...iirc...been a couple years now, but the cream of wheat was filled to the bottom of the neck and I did use a small wad of tp over the powder and filled to the neck with C O W and then a wad of tp to hold it all in
I used brand new brass and they came out beautiful... Nice even shoulders, perfect
And again like HIBC said this is how I did it...lol..I sat on the patio and fired them....I did clean the rifle after each 10 cases...may not have needed to do that, but I did
My rifle is a 99 savage that was gifted to me by my old hunting buddy. He is gone now but I got it done for him, and I got to kill 3 deer with it before he left me...it is a cherished rifle from a great friend and it is a killer for sure
HIBC's method works like a charm......many thanks to him again for helping me get this done
And BE CAREFUL...... Sneaking up is a good thing
Ocharry
Mr. HIBC was very helpful to me...his method worked flawlessly
I did use 296 for my powder...I'm thinking I ended up around 8gr...i did sneek up on that. I think i started with 5gr with 1 case and then went to 6 ending with the 8gr...iirc...been a couple years now, but the cream of wheat was filled to the bottom of the neck and I did use a small wad of tp over the powder and filled to the neck with C O W and then a wad of tp to hold it all in
I used brand new brass and they came out beautiful... Nice even shoulders, perfect
And again like HIBC said this is how I did it...lol..I sat on the patio and fired them....I did clean the rifle after each 10 cases...may not have needed to do that, but I did
My rifle is a 99 savage that was gifted to me by my old hunting buddy. He is gone now but I got it done for him, and I got to kill 3 deer with it before he left me...it is a cherished rifle from a great friend and it is a killer for sure
HIBC's method works like a charm......many thanks to him again for helping me get this done
And BE CAREFUL...... Sneaking up is a good thing
Ocharry
You can fireform with COW method or take 30cal expander lube inside neck then use 338 expander then 35cal expander. I shoot 35 WhelenAI. There is only 3gr difference 35 Whelen and 35 WhelenAI. There is appr 2gr difference 30-06 case to 35 Whelen on cases I have.
Depending on how much powder you use to fireform barrel heat up and need to clean it.
I shoot PD fireforming for my 222AI and shooting 80gr Berger in 243 Lapua case for my 243AI.
Depending on how much powder you use to fireform barrel heat up and need to clean it.
I shoot PD fireforming for my 222AI and shooting 80gr Berger in 243 Lapua case for my 243AI.
Anneal. Expand it to something larger than 35 cal. Then run it through the 35 Whelen FL Die until it fits in the chamber.
Load it up ~10% light, seat some bullets and fire. You can start lighter, but you want 75% case fill or more. Load bullet 0.050” off the lands.
Lots of people will give you short cut methods with odd ball combinations and powders. Most work real well in a 1.45” action and HV barrel. No idea what result you will get in a hunting rifle. Could be fine….could blow up…..could just setback the lugs.
Load it up ~10% light, seat some bullets and fire. You can start lighter, but you want 75% case fill or more. Load bullet 0.050” off the lands.
Lots of people will give you short cut methods with odd ball combinations and powders. Most work real well in a 1.45” action and HV barrel. No idea what result you will get in a hunting rifle. Could be fine….could blow up…..could just setback the lugs.
Paul B : No arguement. I'm curious. Did you get a custom rigid ezpandor arbor or are you using a standard decapping/expander spindle?
For myself,the COW method gives excellent results.Its also a pain, OK,it can be semi-fun...but not real fun.
If,in the future,I can get as good of results simply running through a die,why not?
But with 35 Whelen and standard dies.probably RCBS. been there,done that,got the tee-shirt.
I WAS able to make ammo that way. But it was not to my quality standards.
Not good enough.
The brass in the neck is not perfectly uniform in how it will stretch over the expander. One side will stretch just a bit easier,
All the stretch will pull on the weakest side. Two things then happen. If you use a tube mic on the necks ,or just a good eyeball,the neck wall will be thinner on one side. I reject that.
Another thing that happens is the spindle deflects to the thin side. The result will be a wierd off center shouder. Yep,it will all blow out when you shoot it,
But the stretching and therefore wall thickness will not be uniform.
To be clear...These are the results I got. I don't know the results you got,
If you got uniform necks and concentric shoulders as formed,I'm happy to learn from you.
The COW is extra work. But I got excellent brass. Looked like factory,and uniform neck thickness.
Nathan: Its not a shortcut. Its another method. As long as its COW,no bullet is used,and a sane amount of Bullseye is used,we are not talking about high pressures and "setting back the lugs" is hyperbole.
Have you heard of the book "Pet Loads" by Ken Waters? Ken and I differ in that he suggested corn meal. My mentor said "Don't do that. Use COW"
I did what I was told and it worked beautifully.
But the basic method is in "Pet Loads"
For myself,the COW method gives excellent results.Its also a pain, OK,it can be semi-fun...but not real fun.
If,in the future,I can get as good of results simply running through a die,why not?
But with 35 Whelen and standard dies.probably RCBS. been there,done that,got the tee-shirt.
I WAS able to make ammo that way. But it was not to my quality standards.
Not good enough.
The brass in the neck is not perfectly uniform in how it will stretch over the expander. One side will stretch just a bit easier,
All the stretch will pull on the weakest side. Two things then happen. If you use a tube mic on the necks ,or just a good eyeball,the neck wall will be thinner on one side. I reject that.
Another thing that happens is the spindle deflects to the thin side. The result will be a wierd off center shouder. Yep,it will all blow out when you shoot it,
But the stretching and therefore wall thickness will not be uniform.
To be clear...These are the results I got. I don't know the results you got,
If you got uniform necks and concentric shoulders as formed,I'm happy to learn from you.
The COW is extra work. But I got excellent brass. Looked like factory,and uniform neck thickness.
Nathan: Its not a shortcut. Its another method. As long as its COW,no bullet is used,and a sane amount of Bullseye is used,we are not talking about high pressures and "setting back the lugs" is hyperbole.
Have you heard of the book "Pet Loads" by Ken Waters? Ken and I differ in that he suggested corn meal. My mentor said "Don't do that. Use COW"
I did what I was told and it worked beautifully.
But the basic method is in "Pet Loads"
I have some new 30-06 cases and neck vary from .011 to .0125. and if I use expanders to open neck to 35 cal thickness stays the same.
If you take 30-06 case use COW you blow case out to 35 Whelen , it's blown out to fired case and has to be resized.. Your saying neck thickness be same if it varies?
You have nothing holding case except since not headspaced on shoulders so rifle has to be shot up right. If I want same neck thickness I use neck turner same as I do for my tight neck rifles.
If you take 30-06 case use COW you blow case out to 35 Whelen , it's blown out to fired case and has to be resized.. Your saying neck thickness be same if it varies?
You have nothing holding case except since not headspaced on shoulders so rifle has to be shot up right. If I want same neck thickness I use neck turner same as I do for my tight neck rifles.
You would expect the thicker side of a neck to resist forming more, and for the thinner side therefore to get thinner, but that's not what people report with COW forming. I'd have to do the experiment to try to figure out what is happening, but I don't currently have a gun I need to form brass for.