Firearms repair/modification by someone other than the owner?

K

Kimio

New member
Okay, earlier I asked about having a firearm purchased for me, which I have decided against.

However, I do have a firearm, a CZ75 to be precise, that I've been lending to my step father.

We were talking about having the trigger worked on, and he offered to have the gun shipped to Cajun Gun Works to have the trigger package installed as an Xmas gift of sorts (Since I'll be coming back to the states sometime in the spring)

Since no purchase of a firearm is being made, this should be perfectly within the limits of the law correct?

If I recall, I can have the firearm shipped directly to the smith as well or is that only applicable to repairs and not for modifications?
 
The FFL does not have to execute a Form 4473 or NICS check to return a firearm that has been sent to the FFL solely for the purpose of "repair or customizing", provided that the firearm is being returned to the same person from whom it was received. Thus, there is no need for a FFL transfer upon return.
27 CFR § 478.124 Firearms transaction record.
(a) A licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer shall not sell or otherwise dispose, temporarily or permanently, of any firearm to any person, other than another licensee, unless the licensee records the transaction on a firearms transaction record, Form 4473: Provided, That a firearms transaction record, Form 4473, shall not be required to record the disposition made of a firearm delivered to a licensee for the sole purpose of repair or customizing when such firearm or a replacement firearm is returned to the person from whom received.
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(My emphasis in boldface)

Provided that the transfer of the firearm to your stepfather was lawful in the first place, I don't see any legal problem with this.
 
Provided that the transfer of the firearm to your stepfather was lawful in the first place
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If this took place in a fascist state, and not Utah, it would probably involve cans of worms.
We do have to observe caution when answering these kinds of questions, as to where the OP lives.
 
carguychris said:
Provided that the transfer of the firearm to your stepfather was lawful in the first place
g.willikers said:
If this took place in a fascist state, and not Utah, it would probably involve cans of worms.
We do have to observe caution when answering these kinds of questions, as to where the OP lives.
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Absolutely.

In case it was not clear, my statement was meant to be neutral as to the legality of the original transfer; I didn't intend to imply that it was lawful, as the OP does not give adequate detail to tell one way or the other.

However, the key point with regards to the OP's question is that no Form 4473 must be executed when reclaiming a firearm that has been sent in for repair or customizing, and thus there is no "Are you the actual transferee/buyer...?" question to be answered by the transferee. The firearm is normally returned to the person from whom received, no questions asked—other than that person's identity, date of birth, and address, as the FFL is still required to record the transaction in his/her bound book.
 
also, while Fed law allows direct shipment of long guns "for repair, etc" to the smith, and back to you using USPS, I don't think its allowed for handguns.

simplest, but most costly is to have your FIL take the gun to a dealer, and have them ship and receive it back . That way all laws, Fed and state and local (if any) will be complied with.

despite my being cheap, and whining about dealer fees, I think its money well spent, in the long run.
 
44 AMP said:
...while Fed law allows direct shipment of long guns "for repair, etc" to the smith, and back to you using USPS, I don't think its allowed for handguns.
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That is correct. Per the U.S. postal regulations, only Dealer, Importer, and Manufacturer FFL's and certain gov't/LE/military personnel may send or receive handguns by mail.

However, it may be possible (albeit expensive) to use FedEx or UPS. Consult the stickied "How to ship firearms" thread.
=44 AMP said:
simplest, but most costly is to have your FIL take the gun to a dealer, and have them ship and receive it back .
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This procedure may actually be cheaper depending on how much the FIL's local FFL charges vs. what UPS/FedEx will charge. It may also depend whether and how Cajun Gun Works pays the return shipping.
 
johnwilliamson062 said:
If an FFL mails it they may want to use a 4473 when returning it whether it is legally required or not.
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I believe the sending/receiving FFL will have to execute a 4473 because this FFL will not be the entity performing the "repair or customizing".

27 CFR § 478.124 contains no apparent allowance for another party to act as an intermediary on behalf of the transferee, whether or not that party is a FFL.
 
I believe the sending/receiving FFL will have to execute a 4473 because this FFL will not be the entity performing the "repair or customizing".

27 CFR § 478.124 contains no apparent allowance for another party to act as an intermediary on behalf of the transferee, whether or not that party is a FFL.
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Looking at the quoted CFR section in this thread, I'm not getting this (above) from that.

The first sentence is the key, I think.
...or otherwise dispose, temporarily or permanently, of any firearm to any person, other than another licensee, unless ...
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(bold added)

I believe that this says that FFL to FFL transfers do not require use of form 4473. Other records are kept (bound book, etc) but the 4473 is not required.

UNLESS the transferee is not an FFL, at which point the 4473 IS required, and then this section,
..Form 4473, shall not be required to record the disposition made of a firearm delivered to a licensee for the sole purpose of repair or customizing when such firearm or a replacement firearm is returned to the person from whom received.
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Covers the exception allowed for repair, etc, when the FFL is sending it back (after the work has been done) to a non-FFL (the owner).

If I'm reading this wrong, please, enlighten me...
 
FFL-to-FFL transfers never require a 4473; that's kinda the whole point of having a FFL. :)

However, here's a more detailed explanation of how the transaction would typically be conducted, to explain my reasoning re: the 4473 at the end.
  • Joe transfers pistol to FFL A.
  • FFL A records the transfer from Joe in her bound book and contacts FFL B, who faxes or emails a copy of his license to FFL A, who uses ATF eZCheck and verifies that FFL B is legit. FFL A then mails the pistol to FFL B with a signed copy of her license, and records the transfer to FFL B in her bound book.
  • FFL B receives the pistol, records the transfer from FFL A in his bound book, and sticks the copy of FFL A's license in his file.
  • FFL B performs trigger job.
  • FFL B mails pistol back to FFL A and records the transfer to FFL A in his bound book.
  • FFL A receives the pistol, records the transfer from FFL B in her bound book, and calls Joe to tell him to come pick it up.
FFL A did not perform the repair or customizing. She performed the transfers solely for the purpose of shipping the pistol to B and then transferring it back to Joe once the trigger job was done.

I can see how it could be argued that the whole exercise was conducted for the underlying purpose of repair or customizing. However, if *I* were the receiving FFL, I would use a conservative reading of the law and execute a 4473 to stay on the safe side.

Perhaps the ATF has issued a formal opinion on this matter and someone else will chime in.

Of course, there are fewer steps to the process if this procedure is followed:
  • Joe contacts FFL B, explains what he's sending and why, and faxes or emails a copy of his driver's license to ensure that FFL B will accept the shipment.* FFL B says OK.
  • Joe sends the pistol to FFL B via FedEx or UPS.
  • FFL B receives the pistol, records the transfer from Joe in his bound book, and sticks the copy of Joe's DL in his file.
  • FFL B performs trigger job.
  • FFL B sends pistol back to Joe via FedEx or UPS and records the transfer to Joe in his bound book.
Since there is no intermediary, it is clear from § 478.124 that FFL B is not required to execute a 4473. The question boils down to (a) whether FFL B will accept a pistol shipment from a non-FFL* and (b) whether the added cost of FedEx or UPS offsets the additional transfer fees.

*FOOTNOTE for those not "in the know": Although no law prohibits a FFL from receiving a gun from a non-licensed person via common carrier, many FFLs choose not to accept such shipments to avoid record-keeping problems that can arise if the sender's identity is not clear.
 
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From carguy:
"Joe contacts FFL B, explains what he's sending and why, and faxes or emails a copy of his driver's license to ensure that FFL B will accept the shipment.* FFL B says OK.
Joe sends the pistol to FFL B via FedEx or UPS.
FFL B receives the pistol, records the transfer from Joe in his bound book, and sticks the copy of Joe's DL in his file.
FFL B performs trigger job.
FFL B sends pistol back to Joe via FedEx or UPS and records the transfer to Joe in his bound book."

IMHO, I don't see much difference between that and me hand delivering the handgun to FFL B for work to be performed, and me picking it up when the work is completed. The only difference is the mode of transportation to and from the FFL. And there is no requirement for any 4473/NICS check.

Does a gunsmith FFL have to log into any bound book any gun brought in for repair? My local gunsmith doesn't do ANY transfers. He doesn't want to be bothered with it? Or his FFL doesn't permit/require it? So there was no 4473/NICS check when I picked up my gun.

Maybe one of you smiths can enlighten me.
 
2ndsojourn said:
IMHO, I don't see much difference between that and me hand delivering the handgun to FFL B for work to be performed, and me picking it up when the work is completed. The only difference is the mode of transportation to and from the FFL. And there is no requirement for any 4473/NICS check.
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That's precisely correct – there is effectively no difference.
2ndsojourn said:
Does a gunsmith FFL have to log into any bound book any gun brought in for repair? My local gunsmith doesn't do ANY transfers... there was no 4473/NICS check when I picked up my gun.
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A FFL must record all firearms transactions in his/her bound book regardless of the purpose of the transaction.
27 CFR § 478.125 Record of receipt and disposition.

(e) Firearms receipt and disposition by dealers. Except as provided in § 478.124a with respect to alternate records for the receipt and disposition of firearms by dealers, [478.124a was voided effective October 3, 2014, in order to eliminate the "Low Volume" Form 4473(LV)] each licensed dealer shall enter into a record each receipt and disposition of firearms. In addition, before commencing or continuing a firearms business, each licensed dealer shall inventory the firearms possessed for such business and shall record same in the record required by this paragraph. The record required by this paragraph shall be maintained in bound form under the format prescribed below. The purchase or other acquisition of a firearm shall, except as provided in paragraph (g) of this section, be recorded not later than the close of the next business day following the date of such purchase or acquisition. The record shall show the date of receipt, the name and address or the name and license number of the person from whom received, the name of the manufacturer and importer (if any), the model, serial number, type, and the caliber or gauge of the firearm. The sale or other disposition of a firearm shall be recorded by the licensed dealer not later than 7 days following the date of such transaction. When such disposition is made to a nonlicensee, the firearms transaction record, Form 4473, obtained by the licensed dealer shall be retained, until the transaction is recorded, separate from the licensee's Form 4473 file and be readily available for inspection. When such disposition is made to a licensee, the commercial record of the transaction shall be retained, until the transaction is recorded, separate from other commercial documents maintained by the licensed dealer, and be readily available for inspection. The record shall show the date of the sale or other disposition of each firearm, the name and address of the person to whom the firearm is transferred, or the name and license number of the person to whom transferred if such person is a licensee, or the firearms transaction record, Form 4473, serial number if the licensed dealer transferring the firearm serially numbers the Forms 4473 and files them numerically. The format required for the record of receipt and disposition of firearms is as follows...

(f) Firearms receipt and disposition by licensed collectors. (1) Each licensed collector shall enter into a record each receipt and disposition of firearms curios or relics. The record required by this paragraph shall be maintained in bound form under the format prescribed below. [Requirements omitted because they are substantially identical to the requirements for a Dealer, except that collectors are not required to use Form 4473]

[(g) "Commercial records" and (h) "Alternate records" omitted]

(i) Requirements for importers and manufacturers. Each licensed importer and licensed manufacturer selling or otherwise disposing of firearms or armor piercing ammunition to nonlicensees shall maintain such records of such transactions as are required of licensed dealers by this section.
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(My emphasis in boldface) [My notes in brackets]

§ 478.124 only exempts the FFL from having to execute and keep a Form 4473 for "repair and customizing". It does not exempt the FFL from the record-keeping requirements.
 
"§ 478.124 only exempts the FFL from having to execute and keep a Form 4473 for "repair and customizing". It does not exempt the FFL from the record-keeping requirements."

OK, thanks for the clarification.
 
IF you hand deliver the gun to the FFL and the FFL performs the repair right then right now (as in no overnight), then IIRC he does not have to record anything as he never kept possession.
 
Shipping a Handgun from a State for repair

A month ago I shipped a Sig handgun from the State of California to Sig in New Hampshire for warranty repair via Fed Ex and Sig returned it to me. I could have used UPS. The Postal Service will not ship handguns, only long guns. There was no 4473 involved. Use form EZ-PZ.:)

Call Cajun in advance to verify that you do not have to ship via a FFL and that is an FFL.

This is what one dealer says about shipping firearms. http://www.handgunrepairshop.com/shipping.htm

I am assuming you are not located outside of CONUS. There was a serviceman stationed overseas with some questions about how to purchase a gun through a relative. That could complicate shipping for repairs.
 
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I have returned two handguns to the manufacturer for warranty repairs. The first I shipped directly to the manufacturer by UPS. The manufacturer shipped the gun directly back to me. No transfer, no FFL.

The second one was a manufacturer within driving distance of my home. I had a day off from work, so I elected to drive to the factory and hand it in myself, so I could explain why I was handing them a box of parts rather than a complete firearm. They accepted it from me with no questions, and generally acted like having a customer walk in and hand them a gun was a common, everyday event. Again, the repaired gun was returned directly to me.
 
One caveat here: if the modifications by a gunsmith are so extreme that legally a new gun is being created, the gunsmith has to have a manufacturer's license and it may need to go back to the original owner only? Not sure about that situation.

A trigger job and sights swap do not a new gun make, of course. In a revolver there has to be a caliber swap in both the barrel and cylinder to create this situation. So for example, if a Ruger Blackhawk in 357Mag gets a second cylinder in 356GNR that uses the same barrel, that's OK, but convert that same gun to 41Magnum or the like and now you're in new gun territory. I don't know where the line is on autos.

My "Maurice" is definitely into a "heavily modified" category (and then some) but I did all the work myself. I guess legally it's a home-brew gun?
 
but convert that same gun to 41Magnum or the like and now you're in new gun territory.
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Are you in new gun territory?? Possibly from a functional use point of view, but I don't think you are from a LEGAL point of view.

The serial numbered part (generally the frame, or action) IS the gun under the law, and all the rest of the parts do not play a part in making it a "new" gun.

They may put your "old" (original) gun into a new legal category (such as cutting the barrel short turns a rifle into a "short barrel rifle" making it ATF regulated) but it doesn't make it into a different "new" gun.

Is the Contender a "new gun" everytime you swap the barrels? In field use, maybe, certainly my .45-70 is a "different gun" than my .22LR in USE, but legally its the same gun, because the frame (ser# part) isn't changed.

Is an AR using one ser# lower receiver a different gun with every different caliber upper? Not that I can see.
 
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