FIREARMS INFORMATION

H

Harley Nolden

Staff In Memoriam
I have a Research Library of Firearms Information. It contains assem/disassemb insturction of many firearms,not much on current guns, some historical data and approximate value on many of the old guns.

This information is free for the asking and intended to help the serious collector or even if you just want information on a gun you have.


I can be reached by email @
hnolden@excite.com

or
http://members.tripod.com/~stock4broker/Firearms.html

I would like to post this as a topic on the Firing Line topics for discussion

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OK Harley, I got a good one for you. I am looking for information on the Finland made .45s that Hitler confiscated and incorperated into Nazi sidearms when they were invaded. 1) Where can I get one, 2) How much am I looking to pay for one, 3) How about a couple of pictures, so I know one if I happen to find one. Thanks, SCatt
 
SWINGCATT:
I don't really have the foggiest as to where you could find one, but from what you have described you are looking for a 1906, (11.35mm).45ACP, six shot mag. 5" barrell, 9 3/4" overall. Weight 36oz, Fixed rear sight, dovetailed front sight, Grip Safety, Checkered walnut stocks, GL monogram on rear toggle link, larger frame with altereed trigger gurard and trigger, no proofs, no markings over chamber, no stock lug.

Approx Value: $45,000.00

There is another possibility that you are looking for a Swiss (Rework) It has the same specifications as the 1906 Luger except in barrel lengths of 3 5/8" 4" and 4 3/4"s 8 3/8" overall and to 32oz and and up. DWM on a new styly toggle, barrel with serial number and proof marks, Swiss Cross in sunburst or shield over chamber, jno stock lug.

Approx Valu $3,000.00

I do not have photos of this particular pistol. A key is the grip safety and markings.

Hope this has been of help.

HJN
 
I don't think that Finland used a .45 pistol, Norway did, M-1917, which was a slightly modified 1911 Colt. In fact the first 1917's were made by Colt and the rest were built on Colt supplied or designed machinery. The basic difference between the two pistols was the '17 had an extended slide release.

If I remember correctly, Finland had not been invaded by the Gremans (I could be wrong) and I don't have my reference books on WWII available to check at this time. Norway was invaded.

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Ne Conjuge Nobiscum
 
To all-
We're really fortunate to have Harley's expertise available. He is a virtual encyclopedia of firearms information.
Thanks, Harley.
Rich Lucibella
 
Jim V,

You're right, Norway was invaded by the Germans and Finland was invaded by the Russians. Coincident with Operation Barbarossa in 1941, the Finns allowed German troops transit rights through Lapland to open a new front in Arctic Russia. When Finland terminated its agreements with Germany in 1944, the Germans wouldn't leave, and they had to drive them out in the "Lapland War"!

For the military history fan, WW II in Finland is a fascinating and overlooked part of the whole conflict. If you're also a gun collector, you can now find vintage Finn and Russian rifles at very affordable prices. Those prices are beginning to go up, so don't hesitate!

A couple of historical references:

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/3818/FINNLIV.HTM

http://www.geocities.com/Nashville/8009/photos.html
 
The pistol I am refering to is the Luger, P08 not the 1911 or similar. As this came about in 1906, that was 5yrs after the 1911 was introduced.

I will research farther to determine the 1911 similarity. When you mentioned Confiscated by the Germans, I immediately thought of the P08, that's what my father in-law called it, as Germany had the similarity to the 1906.

HJN
 
With reference to the 1917, as I recall this was made in .45ACP and 38Spl, but was a revolver rather than a Semi-Auto. Do you know who received the Colt machinery? The only company or arsenal I can locate is the Lahti, and although they made a similar pistol I can find none that were made in .45ACP.

Possible you may be refering to the Colt 1905 SA pistol. That has a strong resemblence to the 1911. This pistol was mfg'd from 1905-1911. I can not locate where Colt and Finland had a coigsistance with this firearm, but it could be possible.

HJN
HJN
 
Hey Harley! Thanks for the info! I thought it was Finland, but it looks like it was Norway. Anyway, I have always liked the German Military sidearms and was commenting to a gun shop owner that I would like to seriously collect them. He replied that it would be a pretty extensive collection, because during WWII the German Military issued just about anything they could get their hands on. Which led to him telling me of the 1911s that were issued. Being the 1911 fan I am I instantly began to lust after one, but I must admit that $45,000 is a bit out of the ole' price range right now. I would like to stay under the price of my S/42 Luger. Any ideas what would be some good German Guns to get?

TIA, SCatt
 
I believe the pistol in question is the Norwegian manufactured 1911A1 .45 cal. I do not remember the name of the manufacturer, as the only examples of this gun I've ever seen were built after Nazi occupation. These guns have pretty much 100% parts interchangability with US 1911s. The exception to this is the "doglegged" extended slide stop. This is the best execution of an extended stop I've ever seen, and actually places the thumb pad just over the mag release. These are very rare pistols and very easily picked out of the crowd. It's awfully striking to see a 1911 with Nazi eagles and proofmarks!

BTW
If I knew where to find one, I wouldn't be telling anyone else about it! :D

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Your mind is your primary weapon.
 
Norway was the second country to adopt the Colt M1911. Licensing negotiations with Colt were run through Fabrique Nationale, and the Norwegian government bought open-ended production rights for 25,000 kroner. 300 M1911s were bought from Colt around 1913, and production started at the government arsenal Kongsberg Vapenfabrikk in 1917.

The first 500 were virtually indentical to Colt production, and were marked 'Colt Automatisk Pistol Model 1912'. In 1919, the design was modified (including the addition of the dog-legged slide stop) and renamed the '11.25mm Automatisk Pistol Model 1914'. Reportedly, over 32,000 Model 1914s were completed. This number includes the roughly 10,000 produced under Nazi occupation. The occupation-built pistols were designated by the Heereswaffenamt as the 'Pistole 657(n)'.

Reportedly, Kongsberg Vapenfabrikk made a very small production run of M1914s in the early '80s when the Norwegian military decided to officially adopt a new sidearm. Evidently, they wanted to test whether it would be more cost effective to build new pistols in Norway or to buy them outright from their manufacturer.
 
I am happy that I started this site, as in doing so I knew I would learn something. My knowledge of World History, as you have noticed, is not that great, and in researching this project I have gained a multitude of information. As I am somewhat of a WWII buff, father in-law was captured @ Stalingrad, the info gained here has been enlightening. Thanks

HJN
 
Having reviewed the ans. to the question I have also found the pistol. In addition to the other information may I submit the following. There were approx. 200,000 mfg's between 1912-1932.

Nazi production of the M1914 began in 1941, with serialization begininning where 1932 mfg lef off (Sn 21,000 range) Between 1941-42, 7000 pistols were made without Waffenamt stampings. Nazi stamped guns (all 1945 dated) began in the mid 29,000 serial range and existing specimens indicate that approx 1,000 were mfg's with the Nazi eagle.

If you know about them two rocks in my front yard, you know they are smarter than I am when it come to World History.

Harley
 
You have asked for a photo of the 1914. I have one that will allow you to identify it should you come across one. If you will supply me an email address I can send it.

Additionally the value, is aroun $2,000.00 to $375.00, depending upon the condition.

HJN
 
I am not aware of any Colt .45 or any other kind of .45 used by Finland. The Norwegians bought small lots of Colt M1911s and made a M1911 copy under license from Colt. The only difference is the lowered slide stop thumbpiece (very nice). Production begain in 1917, but that was not the model year. They first designated the pistol the Model 1912 but in 1918 they changed it to Model 1914. There was no change in the guns. About 20,500 of both combined were made up to 1932 when Norwegian production stopped. In 1941, the Nazi occupiers resumed production, and about 12,000 more were made. They were liked by the Germans, but ammo was in short supply. In top condition, the 1912 is worth about $1500, the 1914 about $1100. Add $100 or so for Nazi marking.

The Germans designated the Norwegian .45 the P657(n), but I have not seen any stamped with that number, although I have seen ones with the Nazi acceptance stamp (eagle).

The U.S. Model 1917 revolvers (both the Colt and the S&W were given the same model number by the U.S. Army) are entirely different guns.

[This message has been edited by Jim Keenan (edited March 22, 1999).]
 
In my initial investigation I was not looking for a Colt model, I obviously missed it the initial inquary, but a Luger P08, which was also made in .45ACP. It would appear that we are on the same sheet of music, just off on the prices, which vary from publisher to publisher.

I refered to the Colt 1917, when I noticed the reference to Colt, in additon, the 1917 was not a .45ACP, had to use the ACP adaptors to fire it safely.

I failed to research beyound that, not realizing that it, 1911, was adopted by foreign Govt.

Thanks for the info.

HJN
 
Seems like the answers are here already. However, to correct a common misunderstanding, I'll take this opportunity to remind you that Finland was NOT invaded by Russians at the end of WWII.

I've seen Norwegian 1911's advertised for sale here but am not sure if it's possible (or worth the trouble)to import one to U.S.

Timo
 
TPUTTO:
I can appreciate you response and and that you took the time to reply. My interest here is with the firearm history, and a discussion on WWII history is far beyond my capabilities. Possibly you may have wanted to address this to Tom A.

HJN
 
Harley, sorry about that.
My comment was actually intended to Tom,and possibly a little off-topic. Anyway, national pride demanded this immediate notification!
:)

Timo
 
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