Fire and Ammo

B

bikerbill

New member
Read something this morning that raised a question or two ... the story said firefighters were allowed to let a home burn after ammo stored inside began cooking off ...

so ... one question ... without a barrel to focus the energy of the burning powder, what kind of damage could an average handgun bullet, say a popular standard pressure JHP, do if it hit a human body at 5 feet? 10 feet?

and another ... if you don't store your ammo in a steel safe, do you have the ability to get it out of the house so that the FD can save your home?
 
The bullet, none at all. The bullet is the heavy part, it's not going to move much at all. If the primer flies out, it can do a bit of damage, but if the case ruptures or the bullet unseats before the primer goes flying, there'll be very little to no danger.
 
Throw a handgun cartridge into a camp fire and you get a loud pop without much in the way of drama. The bullet typically moves a little with the brass moves slightly more. The problem I think the FD has, is that they don't know if any of the ammo cooking off happens to be inside a loaded gun.
 
if you don't store your ammo in a steel safe
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Storing ammo and gunpowder inside a steel safe, now you have a potential bomb on your hands during a house fire. (A lot of this depends on the volume of gunpowder.)

My dad has been a fire department chief and firefighter for many, many years (he hasn't gotten tired of it yet, so forget about re-tired!) As mentioned above it is the chambered round that is a possible danger. The protective gear has proven itself to him for years; he has been hit by "pieces/parts" of cooking off ammo on multiple occasions not any worse for the wear.

When I have talked to him about this very topic, his reply is that there are many normally found household chemicals that are typically stored in most homes that are a far greater hazard to firefighters during a structure fire.
 
I know from personal experience that 22lr wont do much harm. One christmas we where burning boxes and had a few 22lrhours bullets in it and they started cooking off and a empty shell hit me in the forehead..barely left a red mark :)
 
Storing ammo and gunpowder inside a steel safe, now you have a potential bomb on your hands during a house fire. (A lot of this depends on the volume of gunpowder.)
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+1. FWIW the International Fire Code specifies that ammo and powder are supposed to be stored in wooden cabinets. The reason is that wood comes apart readily in a fire rather containing the expanding gas and thereby creating an explosion.

Other than rounds chambered in a firearm (see above), I've heard that the most dangerous gun-related items in a fire are- not necessarily in order- loose primers and black powder. The former are light enough that they can fly very fast when they detonate, although most of the danger is within ~5' because they decelerate very quickly. The latter is dangerous because it's actually considered an explosive in and of itself. OTOH smokeless powder is merely a flammable solid; it burns hot, but will not explode unless tightly contained. As AZAK says, numerous other common household chemicals are a lot more dangerous.
 
In larger cartridges with high neck tension, the primer can become a projectile. Primers have enough power to launch themselves with enough velocity to penetrate skin, and do severe damage to eyes. They should be considered to be as dangerous as a pellet rifle being fired.

In reality, the primer is rarely ejected from the cartridges. It's that low chance, that makes you weigh the odds for yourself.

As far as the case and bullet... Bullets usually don't go far. For most cartridges, the bullet weighs more than the casing. The casing will move significantly farther. ...But even 3-6" of casing movement can be significant, when the bullet just pushes forward 1/2", and rolls over.

Case ruptures are the other issue. Most cartridges 'blow' by having the casing pushed off of the mostly-stationary bullet. But, when they decide to rupture, you get shrapnel. Those sharp, unpredictable pieces of metal can be nasty (as well as hot embers, if you toss ammo in a fire... or build a fire on some one's buried ammo cache :rolleyes:{don't ask}).


...Which brings us to firefighters.
They wear protective clothing and equipment that will stop all of these hazards. One of the towns I used to live in actually went so far in their "Home Hazards and Firefighter Safety" pamphlet*, as to tell people not to worry about storing ammunition in their homes. They elaborated that the firefighting gear offered more than enough protection, and it was a non-issue.
But, as we all know... They spent a significant amount of time warning about the storage methods, locations, and quantities of: Paints. Oils. Gasoline. Propane. Cleaners. Any aerosol cans. Alcohol. ...and the list goes on. They even devoted a full page to proper selection of flame-resistant bedding materials; but ammunition was 'don't worry about it'.


(*I was trying to find any local restrictions on smokeless powder. They directed me to this pamphlet. Later that year, the actually had a demonstration where they dumped small arms ammo into a fire, then walked up and put it out. ;))
 
FiL stores his ammo in the bedroom of his house, therefore, MiL plans to leap out the window in event of a fire.:D Seriously

But whether it actually poses a danger, why risk it?

but ammunition was 'don't worry about it'.
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Heh, would really seem somewhat of an oxymoron.
 
The problem I think the FD has, is that they don't know if any of the ammo cooking off happens to be inside a loaded gun.
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I've heard the same over the years from firemen, the primer can cause damage, but won't penetrate a fireman's protective gear. However, if they hear ammo cooking off they make a judgment call as to whether there may be loaded/chambered firearms.
 
Fire fighter

I'm a Military Firefighter in the Air Force and we have specific distances for safety, and time we use for small arms and other munitions to include but limited to 9mm and 5.56. They can kill when heated to specific temps at a range of times. We deal with these things on a somewhat regular basis (when delpoyed) unlike civilian departments which may not have the times and safe distances on hand like we do in the military.

I"ve responded to aircraft fires with live 50mm rounds and they shoot the $hit out of any thing in front of them they heat up enough.

Firefighters are always taught to keep safety in mind (theirs above all others) so that we can help others when the time is needed.
 
I was fighting a house fire with copious amounts of ammunition cooking off. Twenty two bullets and brass littered the street by the time the fire was quenched. However quite a few 7.62x39's cooked off as well. What made me shutter a little was recovered brass with the case crammed full os wallboard. Apparently after detonation there was enough energy in the casing to penatrate completely the wall. No other explanation I can come up with for the cases to be completely filled with wallboard.
 
liberty -r- death,

Thanks for your service.

The big question here is whether a round laying lose vs. one contained, as in chambered or otherwise enclosed, would act anything like a fired round.

Some of those large bore cannon on board acft are loaded with active bullets, meaning tracers, misch-metal, incendiary, IAP, and others. Not quite the same problem as with an inert (mass only) bullet. But even with a simple inert bullet, the case of a 20mm or a .50BMG could be a respectable projectile on its own.

Imagine a C-130 gunship ... 40mm, or even a 105mm round.

Also, military loadings have a stout crimp between case and projectile and again at the primer pocket. For normal sidearms, an uncontained round, the projectile can never reach anything like a muzzle velocity. Not saying it won't leave a mark and it surely could cause injury.

That said, in reference to the campfire analogy ... hot ash and coals can be sent where you would rather they not be. Not a safe pasttime.
 
There is a Mythbusters on YouTube they they show that a bullet in a fire doesn't go anywhere. They put a BUNCH in a campfire and watch em cook off. Some of the bigger calibers do create some dangerous shrapnel. But these are only the big calibers. They also do one where they put rounds in an oven and they didn't even break the glass on the oven door. You should check it out, pretty interesting stuff.

So anyway, unless you have really big caliber ammo I would venture to say that their protective gear would also protect them from cook offs.

Try explaining that to them while your house is on fire though. I don't blame them for not wanting to go in though. If I hear a bunch of rounds going off I would likely hang out on the other side of the firetruck.
 
In my EOD (civilian bomb squad) days, I did a lot of instruction in the Explosive Field.

One of the things I covered was the hazards of fighting fires containing ammo and loading components.

If kept in their original containers, and stored on shelves they are less of a hazard then full or partially full paint cans. Much less of a hazard the many cleaning components.

In Gen J. Hatcher's book, "Hatcher's Notebook" he has a good section on "Explosions and Powder Fires" that covers the subject quite well.

Now for a little story: Years ago, while on the police department I was also in the national guard. I was attending some sort of school for the Guard at Ft Benning (forgot which one).

After a field problem one night, during an "admin" period we were setting around a camp fire and got to discussing this topic. I had explained that bullets in fires were not really that dangerous, (providing you have eye protection) and was tossing live 5.56 rounds in the fire to demonstrating my theory.

I tossed one in and we were waiting for it to cook off when this other officer (2LT) walked up (not knowing what we were doing) asked if we knew what happens when you squirt an orange peeling in a fire, then bends over and squirts juice from a peeling into the fire, just that instant the round cooked off.

Anyone who says Lieutenants can't broad jump BACK WARDS should have been there.
 
In 1977, Knoxville, Tn. I witnessed a taxidermy/gun shop burn.
Soon after the fire fighters arrived the ammunition in the fully involved building started cooking off. You could hear and see the exploding rounds piercing the exterior walls in showers of sparks.
The only thing anyone could do was take cover and wait for the conflagration to consume the structure.
It was an interesting display.
 
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