Finally, someone with a CLUE

K

KAM_Indianapolis

New member
The National Shooting Sports Foundation (NSSF) and the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms (ATF) today launched a national campaign to prevent and deter the illegal “straw man” purchase of firearms. Featuring the theme of Don't Lie For The Other Guy, the campaign is a coordinated effort designed to train firearms retailers on better identifying potential straw purchases and educate the public on the consequences of purchasing a firearm for someone who legally cannot. Such a purchase is commonly referred to as a straw man purchase and is punishable by up to ten years imprisonment.
http://www.nssf.org/

Sounds like a reasonable measure to take. Wondering what others think...
 
Wow, what a wonder!
With less than 80 days left to the election, they are finally, after 8 years, going to start emphasizing enforcement of The Law!
Gosh, I bet this will sure make a difference for the suffering public, now that Clinton's government has finally felt our pain.
I'll bet Gore will really fight for us on this one, now that he's such an old fashioned populist.
 
NSSF is an organization tied to the gun manufacturers who have been assailed by various lawsuits. I imagine they had to really pull some strings to get this campaign off the ground. Good for the NSSF!
 
Your gun "privilges" are already revoked for even a traffic ticket now in sweden. Crime is skyrocketing in areas where civilian ownership of firearms has been drastically reduced and it will happen here too. So soon, a person who buys a gun for someone who is uneligable for some BS reason will face this amount of time while people who steal weapons will not get near the amount of time because they will be charged with simple burglery, doesn't sound too good eh ?There will never, ever, ever, ever be ANY law they will ever pass at all - period, that will not be used against us at a later date without any shadow of a doubt. These programs will not effect crime as criminals do not obey any laws and generally the guns they acquire are stolen to begin with.

Please consider the worst case scenerio, the BATF is no friend of ours and if they support this type of legislation they are doing it for a reason. As they proved in Waco and Ruby Ridge, they are murders, and these extravagant sentances for things like this should not be supported. What if you sell a gun to someone who has a record and you arn't aware, your gun wasn't registered and you saw no need to cause it to be by doing a background check so you sold it straight up ? Then you get 10 years - do you honestly think this "crime" should cost you 10 years ? This is what this law is all about- they don't pass laws to stop real criminals anymore - they pass them to gain absolute control over the populous, that is all they will ever do from now on.

Sooner or later we will either have to break the law, be a victim or be part of the problem just like it happened in Germany.

[This message has been edited by scud (edited August 24, 2000).]
 
Scud, you miss the point. It is pretty clear that a small percentage of dealer DO contribute to straw man sales. No one buys
35 Lorcins a month for themselves.

These folks are easily identifiable and should be trashed.

You can post about concerns that such laws will be used for control but on the other hand, someone who breaks the law for a strawman usually isn't buying the gun for some patriot of the RKBA.

Look at that girl in Columbine who walked on the strawman issue.

I have little sympathy for this position.
Don't break the law.
 
Enoch:

I am afraid you are missed what I was getting at, edited: actually I am referring to now and to the near future. Why do we need anymore gun laws at all ? There are pleanty of laws on the books, as for the law - the law is becomming increasingly unjust and oppressive, just because they say "it's the law" doesn't mean it will always be right. It was the law to round up homosexuals and herd them into death camps along with the Jews and I know you don't think that was right. That's my point, if they continue to write new laws how long before they've criminalized everything ? We have way too many laws as it is right now.

[This message has been edited by scud (edited August 24, 2000).]
 
I do get what you are saying scud.

Currently it is illegal to buy a firearm for someone else. Especially someone else who you know is a felon. It's not about passing a new law, the NSSF is mearly trying to get the dealers to know what the law is.

We do need to make sure that FFL dealers are obeying the laws that exist. Whether we like the laws or not they should be enforced. We are still at a point where we can change the laws if we do not like them. We just need to get more favorable representatives and leaders.

I also agree that there should be no further laws that bare law abiding citizens from purchasing firearms.

And I also agree that there are to many laws already. The government needs to be down sized in a big way. Cut all the pork, the giveaways, foreign aid, etc... Eliminate the departments that now have nothing to do... And then give me back my money, and stay out of my life. There are certain things that the government needs to do.

[This message has been edited by KAM_Indianapolis (edited August 24, 2000).]
 
EnochGale, Look at that girl in Columbine who walked on the strawman issue.

How would of she been stopped?


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"Gun Control is Only to Protect Those in Power"
 
KAM_Indianapolis, What would lead to a suspicion of a strawman purchase? How many guns would one have to buy to bring about a strawman suspicion, 2, 3, 4? If a suspicion is suspected how would the Dealer, ATF do to follow up? Are you going to have the goon squads from the ATF busting down doors at 0300 hours? Some laws do look good on the surface, but it's what is under the surface and the abuse that can come from such a law is what matters. Take the instant background check, sounds great until you're denied because a different guy with the same first and last name has a felony on his/her criminal record and you find out the check isn't always instant. Could you feel me in on this info?

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"Gun Control is Only to Protect Those in Power"
 
I would rather see some thought given to the matter by FFL dealers, than to have more regulation of our rights put into effect. Or more legislation be suggested.

How do we assure that legal sellers of firearms do not knowingly sell to a felon?

We need to pick our battles wisely. I want the same end goal as you, the right to keep and bear arms. There are some 20,000 or more laws on the books. Do you think they are going to drop them all over night. As they have eroded us, we need to turn the tide and use the same tactics. Taking an all or nothing stance now, doesn't accomplish much in my opinion, but you have the right to express your opinions.

I think we can get there by incrementally turning back laws. If we ignore opportunities to make a difference in felons getting guns, I think it is as bad as not helping out when something that will help or hurt us comes along. That's just my opinion.

Does not being able to buy a gun through a 'straw' purchase restrict someones right to keep and bear arms? That's the question. Can't you buy your own darn guns. What is the impact on your rights is my question to you?

[This message has been edited by KAM_Indianapolis (edited August 24, 2000).]
 
The real problem with this is that the Feds have no authority to stop purchases of firearms. This is not a federal issue. The BATF should stay out of it. It is a state issue.

If you recall in the past 1970s the SC even struck down the law that said that the feds can ban felons from owning firearms. Congress later amended the law to claim that they were regulating interstate commerce, but it is still an unconstitutional law.

Remember, criminal law is the business of the States not the feds. We need to stick to the principle of keeping the feds out of gun control or we are simply screwing ourselves.
 
KAM_Indianapolis:

I see your point, the unfortunate problem is that the people we are dealing with do not play fair. It's not just dangerous felons we're talking about now, they've included misdomeaner domestic battery, alcohol abuse ( by who's determination could that be made ? )mental problems - same deal. etc. The trouble is with the ever growing group that are no longer "allowed" to possess how long till they come knocking on your, or a freind of yours' door ? I have yet to see any firearms laws repealed, if we keep jacking them up and adding them it's only a matter of time till we end up like austrailia.
 
KAM_Indianapolis, Are you going to answer my questions on my previous post?

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"Gun Control is Only to Protect Those in Power"
 
scud, you are 100% right.

KAM, the FFL dealers already know the law, or should. The ones that don`t give a Damn will continue.

It`s all propaganda from the ATF.

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"Defiance"
And yet...it moves
(Galileo Galilie)
 
Personally I think a firearms safety promotional blitz would do more for gun safety than what they are doing... Eddie Eagle is a good start, but an on air, in your face commercial about the FACTS. That should wake up your average gun and non-gun owner. How about a poster with a handgun, and a 5 gallon bucket. Question above the two. "Which is more dangerous?"

Below each: # of accidental deaths caused by each: children age 0-18

Respond: "Make up your own mind!"

So YES, there are a number of different ideas out there to actually solve the issues out there. So how come none of the candidates are proposing them. Why aren't all the associations and organizations doing this... Because their money is all tied up in trying to prevent congress from completely taking away our rights. It's a sad state of affairs.

I think what NSSF actions show is a willingness to work with the government to control an out-of-control situation. I'm not talking about citizens and patriots having arms, it's the felons and convicts, being released early, and getting easy access to guns.

If it is true that most criminals obtain their firearms through theft, then we should be better educating the "average" gun owner. We here on this forum are probably not your average gun owner. We care about our firearms, and our rights.

So, yes, I would rather see vermont style carry all across the nation. And felons will somehow, not be able to obtain arms. And even if they do, 1 out of 10 of us would not fear defending our community from them.

But, I seem to be living in a different country than you. We have a mess right now, and it's our job to clean it and hold it back as much as possible. We have to guarantee our rights not just for ourselves, but for our decendents as well.

And I do agree, there are many laws and proclomations from the last 8 years that I want to see turned back (automatically if possible). And not just about gun control. Every group that is for the president has one that opposess it. So we keep fighting about issues instead of solving them.

Peace...
Keith



[This message has been edited by KAM_Indianapolis (edited August 26, 2000).]
 
I'm with you scud. It all sounds warm and fuzzy on the surface but will only lead to abuses down the road. Why the heck can't I give a gun to someone for a present!!?? My mom gave me 4 as presents and the others I got when she died. Thank goodness it was before these stupid laws.
If anyone here thinks they are beyond being labeled as a felon, learn about the S.2099 amendment!
And like scud pointed out, it is easy to lable a group of people as unfit for gun ownership based on dislike, like gays or Jews. We may not agree with the veiws of Randy Weaver but look what came out of that. When the incident first happened I didn't see what the big deal was. Now that I've learned more and witnessed the erosion of our constitutional rights, I have a different view.
 
Clearly NSSF is hoping to both earn brownie points with FEDGOV by its cooperation, and maybe pick up a little PR bonus.

Unfortunately, this is akin to what Neville Chamberlain thought he was doing when he sought to appease Hitler.

--The Beez
 
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