It was suggested to me that I should use the Final Finish fire lap kit to break in my new 700P 308. I was told that I should only have to use about 1/2 of the recommended number of rounds unless the bore was really rough. I guess the kit is designed to use 50 bullets for the initial break in and then 25 for a follow up about a year later. I was also told that it only removes a max of .0003". Anybody use it? What were your results? Where is it available on the web? Thanks for any help, Jim
Final Finish for breaking in a new 700p?
- Thread starter Bullmoose
- Start date
DAVID NANCARROW
New member
Bull Moose,
Unless you have noticed anything particularly unusual in the bore, you might just want to take it out and shoot it to see how it performs. I bought a VS in 308-same rifle, different shaped stock, and have had nothing but great accuracy with it. At the time I picked it up, I bought 168 grain Match loads from Federal, Hornady and Remington. The worst groups came from Federal at just under 3/4 inch, the Hornady at 5/8ths, and the surprise was Big Green at a shade under .5. Since then, my handloads run consistantly under .4, and I have had several 5 shot groups at .25! Hope yours does well. You are going to have a ball! By the way, I have over 5,000 rounds through it, and the accuracy is still there. I'm not sure if firelapping will extend barrel life, but the fact that it removes metal makes me think it might not, although it probably will make it easier to clean
Unless you have noticed anything particularly unusual in the bore, you might just want to take it out and shoot it to see how it performs. I bought a VS in 308-same rifle, different shaped stock, and have had nothing but great accuracy with it. At the time I picked it up, I bought 168 grain Match loads from Federal, Hornady and Remington. The worst groups came from Federal at just under 3/4 inch, the Hornady at 5/8ths, and the surprise was Big Green at a shade under .5. Since then, my handloads run consistantly under .4, and I have had several 5 shot groups at .25! Hope yours does well. You are going to have a ball! By the way, I have over 5,000 rounds through it, and the accuracy is still there. I'm not sure if firelapping will extend barrel life, but the fact that it removes metal makes me think it might not, although it probably will make it easier to clean
700PSS Shooter
New member
Agreed
I agree! Shoot it first. I did the modified break in for my PSS with cleaning after each round for 3 shots, after every 3 rounds for 9, and after every 4 up to 20, with JB bore paste used "easily" for the last 2 cleanings. My experiences mirror David's.
I have shot 40 rounds over an hour with cleaning at the 20 mark, and the 40 shot group was sub-MOA. That was from a winter cold barrel to a hot barrel. Pretty consistant.
My rifle really likes the Black Hills red box 168 non-Moly, followed by Federal Gold Medal Match. Interestingly, PMC milspec 150 gr. also does very well. I am itching to reload for it.
I agree! Shoot it first. I did the modified break in for my PSS with cleaning after each round for 3 shots, after every 3 rounds for 9, and after every 4 up to 20, with JB bore paste used "easily" for the last 2 cleanings. My experiences mirror David's.
I have shot 40 rounds over an hour with cleaning at the 20 mark, and the 40 shot group was sub-MOA. That was from a winter cold barrel to a hot barrel. Pretty consistant.
My rifle really likes the Black Hills red box 168 non-Moly, followed by Federal Gold Medal Match. Interestingly, PMC milspec 150 gr. also does very well. I am itching to reload for it.
DAVID NANCARROW
New member
The surprise of my life was buying a box of plain vanilla Winchester 150 PSP's in the silver box! A whole $9 worth, and the darned things will cut groups to be covered with a dime all day! Honestly, I have not picked up a box of commercial ammo from anyone which will not group under .750! Amazing rifle-the only thing on my wish list would be to have H&S come out with their stock shaped like the LS. As much as I like wood for the feel and looks, logically I know the kevlar stock is going to be maintenence free, but a friend of mine got the laminated wood stock and it is comfortable.
One thing I forgot to mention-an inch/pound torque wrench is great to have when setting the action back into the stock. Mine sets up correctly at 65 inch/pounds and have separated the action from the stock at the range, retorqued in 10 inch/pound increments and put bullets into the same hole I had made previously.
One thing I forgot to mention-an inch/pound torque wrench is great to have when setting the action back into the stock. Mine sets up correctly at 65 inch/pounds and have separated the action from the stock at the range, retorqued in 10 inch/pound increments and put bullets into the same hole I had made previously.
Bullmoose, I wrote a review on Final Finish at Sniper Country. You can read it here www.snipercountry.com/InReviews/DavidTubbsFinalFinish.htm
I used it due to my barrel getting large amounts of copper fouling but found that it increased my velocities and lowered pressures as well as make it easier to clean. The directions that come with it explain how to use it and the link at my article also has some gooddetails on it's use. Personally I would use it to breakin any new factory rifle instead of the standard breakin procedures. It's quicker and will do a much better job. I had already fired my rifle before I used it so you won't hurt the rifle by shooting it before using the process but just make sure to clean it very well and make sure there isn't any copper fouling before using he process. There's a link to the company you can get it from in my article but I've also seen it in Cabela's as well as a few other places. Bottom line, it works great. Good Luck
I used it due to my barrel getting large amounts of copper fouling but found that it increased my velocities and lowered pressures as well as make it easier to clean. The directions that come with it explain how to use it and the link at my article also has some gooddetails on it's use. Personally I would use it to breakin any new factory rifle instead of the standard breakin procedures. It's quicker and will do a much better job. I had already fired my rifle before I used it so you won't hurt the rifle by shooting it before using the process but just make sure to clean it very well and make sure there isn't any copper fouling before using he process. There's a link to the company you can get it from in my article but I've also seen it in Cabela's as well as a few other places. Bottom line, it works great. Good Luck
You won't and can't screw up the barrel by the above method. Gale McMillan's idea of just shooting the rifle is great if you don't care about accuracy for a few hundred rounds and don't mind cleaning. Barrel breakin smooths out the inside of the barrel by taking out small imperfections left by the cutting the rifling causing it to not pick up as much copper and foul as quickly which inturn gives you better accuracy for a longer time between cleanings. With Gale's idea you just shoot and clean when done after as many rounds as you want. This will eventually do the same as a good break in but you'll be cleaning your barrel alot more to get the copper out. I guess it boils down to doing all the cleaning at once between shots and groups with a break in or doing it over time with Gale's method. The above Tubb's method will let you fire 50 rounds and then have a barrel that is not only smoother causeing alot less fouling but gives better velocities and is slightly more accurate. I guess it all depends on what you look for out of your rifle. I want top of the line accuracy so I will continue to do things that I have used and found to work and others say are not needed. It's all personal preference and you have to make up your own mind but I'd like to keep getting groups like the 5 shot 100 yard group from my .308 below, except for that darn 5th shot 
Good luck.
Good luck.Attachments
This is taken from the post of Gale's on Breaking in a 700PSS:
"For what it is worth I will tell you a story about a conversation I had with another barrel maker a few years ago. This fellow was putting break in instructions in with each new barrel and I asked him what his thoughts were on the subject because I knew at the time it was a lot of BS. He said " Mac I make about 700 barrels a year because that's about my share of the market. A match barrel looses its accuracy in some thing over 3000 rounds. If the shooter shoots an extra 100 rounds breaking it in Just figure how many more rifle barrels I will make a year. If you stop and think that a barrel doesn't know whether one or five has gone through it before cleaning When I send out a match grade barrel I tell the shooter to clean it as often as possible . That means if you're a B/R competitor clean it between matches which will be 7 or 8 rounds If you are just at the range clean it every 5 round group. If you are a high power shooter that means 20 some rounds so clean it when you come off the line. The best round through a barrel is the first round and it is a down hill process from there on So if you follow the fad that's going around you are shorting the life of your barrel at least one match! Now I know I am going to be flamed by the monkey see monkey do crowd so while you are at it tell me just how you think you are improving the barrel with your routine."
Maybe that says something different to you but to me it seems like Gale doesn't like the idea of breaking in barrels because it shortens the barrel life. Thus from that I would think he meant that you should just go shoot the rifle and clean it after shooting it and not waste time on a break in. Am I wrong? Does anyone else not see this?
I would say he's right if you didn't use the time properly. When I break in my rifles I also use the time for load developement, sighting in the scope or just for practice. I don't call any of those wastefull. If you just go out and fire a round down range without worry about using it for anything than I would call that wastefull no matter how many rounds you have down the bore. I personally found the Tubb's process to work even better than a standard break in in half the time and that's why I'll use it in the future. It smooths and uniforms the bore better, gives better velocities with the same round and makes clean up is very easy. Those are things I look for in a break in and usually find them but if I can do that in half the time and about the same amount of rounds then that's what I'm going to do.
Also I don't know what round Gale's friend was taking about but in the .308 you can get many more rounds than the stated 3000 and still be very accurate. Most factory barrels can get between 5000 and 8000 and still have very good accuracy although this does depend on your load. So knowing that do you think 50 rounds in the begining of the barrels life that will give you better performance and easier cleaning really going to hurt anything. I don't think so and that comes from my personal expierience.
"For what it is worth I will tell you a story about a conversation I had with another barrel maker a few years ago. This fellow was putting break in instructions in with each new barrel and I asked him what his thoughts were on the subject because I knew at the time it was a lot of BS. He said " Mac I make about 700 barrels a year because that's about my share of the market. A match barrel looses its accuracy in some thing over 3000 rounds. If the shooter shoots an extra 100 rounds breaking it in Just figure how many more rifle barrels I will make a year. If you stop and think that a barrel doesn't know whether one or five has gone through it before cleaning When I send out a match grade barrel I tell the shooter to clean it as often as possible . That means if you're a B/R competitor clean it between matches which will be 7 or 8 rounds If you are just at the range clean it every 5 round group. If you are a high power shooter that means 20 some rounds so clean it when you come off the line. The best round through a barrel is the first round and it is a down hill process from there on So if you follow the fad that's going around you are shorting the life of your barrel at least one match! Now I know I am going to be flamed by the monkey see monkey do crowd so while you are at it tell me just how you think you are improving the barrel with your routine."
Maybe that says something different to you but to me it seems like Gale doesn't like the idea of breaking in barrels because it shortens the barrel life. Thus from that I would think he meant that you should just go shoot the rifle and clean it after shooting it and not waste time on a break in. Am I wrong? Does anyone else not see this?
I would say he's right if you didn't use the time properly. When I break in my rifles I also use the time for load developement, sighting in the scope or just for practice. I don't call any of those wastefull. If you just go out and fire a round down range without worry about using it for anything than I would call that wastefull no matter how many rounds you have down the bore. I personally found the Tubb's process to work even better than a standard break in in half the time and that's why I'll use it in the future. It smooths and uniforms the bore better, gives better velocities with the same round and makes clean up is very easy. Those are things I look for in a break in and usually find them but if I can do that in half the time and about the same amount of rounds then that's what I'm going to do.
Also I don't know what round Gale's friend was taking about but in the .308 you can get many more rounds than the stated 3000 and still be very accurate. Most factory barrels can get between 5000 and 8000 and still have very good accuracy although this does depend on your load. So knowing that do you think 50 rounds in the begining of the barrels life that will give you better performance and easier cleaning really going to hurt anything. I don't think so and that comes from my personal expierience.
Gale was likely talking about the 6PPC - In the BR world, when a barrel starts grouping above 0.15" (absent wind, etc.), it is NOT competitive...
Now, you're gonna need some fireformed brass to play with to see if the darn thing actually shoots, so your first 20 rounds are going to be forming anyway, right? So, clean every round for five, then every three rounds for five 3-shot groups, then shoot the formed brass (you can wear out a barrel with 20 rounds of formed 6PPC brass).
If I was to firelap a barrel, I'd use the "finest" abrasive, or some JB or something like that, over light loads. And I wouldn't do it unless a barrel REALLY fouled.
Now, you're gonna need some fireformed brass to play with to see if the darn thing actually shoots, so your first 20 rounds are going to be forming anyway, right? So, clean every round for five, then every three rounds for five 3-shot groups, then shoot the formed brass (you can wear out a barrel with 20 rounds of formed 6PPC brass).
If I was to firelap a barrel, I'd use the "finest" abrasive, or some JB or something like that, over light loads. And I wouldn't do it unless a barrel REALLY fouled.
Bogie, I agree with you about not using a fire lap on a barrel that doesn't fould that much which usually mean the barrel has a smoother interior finish. I would never use it on my hand lapped match barrel but every factory Remington barrel that I've seen could stand to use a touch up from the Tubb's tratment. They even state in the directions that if your barrel shoots good to only use the 3 finer grit bullets and not the courser ones because the barrel is probably fairly smooth to begin with. They also say to use the lightest load with the fastest burning powder so the bullet isn't screaming out the barrel. Give their site a read. There's a link in my review. It's not for every barrel but will do a fairly heavy fouling factory barrel, like my 300WM's, alot of good.
Also I think with comparing a custom barreled benchrest gun, like Gale was talking about, and a factory tactical style rifle like the 700PSS is like comparing apples to oranges. The 700PSS wasn't meant to be as accurate as a 6mm PPC benchrest gun or the like. It was made to be a 1 MOA rifle. It's barrel isn't as finely made or put together on the action with the same care. But with some work you can get it to shoot 1/2 MOA and not foul to badly.
Bullmoose take everything you've read here and make your own decision on whether the Tubb system is good for you. Like I said earlier you can shoot the rifle to see what you have and then later down the road you use the Tubb system. Just make sure to clean the bore very well to get out all the copper fouling. Good luck.
Also I think with comparing a custom barreled benchrest gun, like Gale was talking about, and a factory tactical style rifle like the 700PSS is like comparing apples to oranges. The 700PSS wasn't meant to be as accurate as a 6mm PPC benchrest gun or the like. It was made to be a 1 MOA rifle. It's barrel isn't as finely made or put together on the action with the same care. But with some work you can get it to shoot 1/2 MOA and not foul to badly.
Bullmoose take everything you've read here and make your own decision on whether the Tubb system is good for you. Like I said earlier you can shoot the rifle to see what you have and then later down the road you use the Tubb system. Just make sure to clean the bore very well to get out all the copper fouling. Good luck.
Greg Langelius
Inactive
Hi, Folks;
I just stuck my nose in here after being reminded of the site by Rob01. When I went to register, I found out I already was; how's that for a great memory?
We have a rifle accuracy website at http://www.snipershide.com/ where subjects related to getting the accuracy potential out of factory rifles is covered in depth in the 'Black Rifles' and 'Black Thoughts' sections. This is one of the covered subjects.
The thing to understand about breaking in barrels and firelapping is that not all barrels are created equal. The difference is the degree of final finishing applied to the barrel before it reaches the owner's hands. Most factory barrels get bored and rifled, and that's about it. They get proof fired and cleaned (usually, not enough), and get shipped.
Custom barrels, on the other hand, get a fair degree of interior finishing, usually in the form of lapping, often by hand. I don't know of any barrels that get firelapped by the maker, but I wouldn't be surprised if some custom gunmakers might be doing some of that.
I guess the message here is that factory rifles make better candidates for firelapping than ones with expensive custom barrels. The latter won't be needing it, they're already lapped. The former will probably benefit from some form of lapping to 'complete the job'.
The first step is to figure out if something's broken before we go about fixing it. Ten rounds down the barrel will tell you if it groups, and how quickly it fouls. Firelapping may or may not improve grouping. In a factory barrel, it will usually make a significant difference in fouling. This means it will shoot like a clean barrel for more rounds.
Using a copper clad bullet to wear in a steel barrel is not my idea of a good break-in. As soon as the first round gets fired, the roughest parts of the bore get coated with copper, and are shielded from any further polishing action that may be taking place, so the parts that grab the copper get touched the least by any succeding rounds.
If that method is going to work at all, it need to be accompanied by cleaning after each round, to re-expose the fouled regions in the barrel. Otherwise, the only parts of the bore that get swept are the ones that are smooth already.
I don't use strong abrasives anywhere near a bore. About the roughest stuff I would consider are cleaning abrasives like JB or RemClean. The danger here is in washing out the rifling in the throat.
I coat the bullets of loaded ammo, simple stuff like American Eagle, or Winchester White Box, or Rem UMC, with one of the above cleaning agents, evenly and lightly, and give them some time to dry a little. The I fire and clean, one round at a time, until I've used up a box of 20. That's it.
This is enough to significantly alter the fouling characteristics of the barrel, while doing the absolute least amount of wear possible to the throat.
In my experience this has delivered some very accurate barrels. Whether they shoot better after than before is a good question, but they clean up a lot easier, and stay accurate for more rounds before cleaning become beneficial to accuracy.
This is important for shooters who shoot a lot of rounds in a session, like Highpower shooters in the National Match Course. The Matches I used to shoot ran at least 52 rounds, and probably 10 or 15 more with sighters and foulers. In some Tactical Matches, it may involve 20 round stages. It is not unusual to find yourself firing the whole match without getting any opportunity to clean. Just when you're counting on the most accuracy, as when you fire 22 rounds of prone slowfire, you find your barrel is shooting its worst, due to fouling.
Time can be a factor too. Firing more quickly heats the barrel, and can contribute to groups opening up. Combine that with a heavy fouling barrel, and you might end up watching your 10's turn into 9's or 8's due to increased dispersion. Obviously, a barrel which fouls less is advantageous.
Would I firelap a custom barrel? Nope. Would I firelap a factory barrel? I do, as a matter of course, with each rifle I buy, new or used; right after performing a major cleaning, to ensure I'm dealing with a bare bore, not a coppered one.
Why firelap used barrels? I find that used guns almost always get sold because they're no longer accurate. In most of the cases I've encountered, once they get a really good cleaning, they get accurate again. I firelap them because I want them to stay that way.
Greg
I just stuck my nose in here after being reminded of the site by Rob01. When I went to register, I found out I already was; how's that for a great memory?
We have a rifle accuracy website at http://www.snipershide.com/ where subjects related to getting the accuracy potential out of factory rifles is covered in depth in the 'Black Rifles' and 'Black Thoughts' sections. This is one of the covered subjects.
The thing to understand about breaking in barrels and firelapping is that not all barrels are created equal. The difference is the degree of final finishing applied to the barrel before it reaches the owner's hands. Most factory barrels get bored and rifled, and that's about it. They get proof fired and cleaned (usually, not enough), and get shipped.
Custom barrels, on the other hand, get a fair degree of interior finishing, usually in the form of lapping, often by hand. I don't know of any barrels that get firelapped by the maker, but I wouldn't be surprised if some custom gunmakers might be doing some of that.
I guess the message here is that factory rifles make better candidates for firelapping than ones with expensive custom barrels. The latter won't be needing it, they're already lapped. The former will probably benefit from some form of lapping to 'complete the job'.
The first step is to figure out if something's broken before we go about fixing it. Ten rounds down the barrel will tell you if it groups, and how quickly it fouls. Firelapping may or may not improve grouping. In a factory barrel, it will usually make a significant difference in fouling. This means it will shoot like a clean barrel for more rounds.
Using a copper clad bullet to wear in a steel barrel is not my idea of a good break-in. As soon as the first round gets fired, the roughest parts of the bore get coated with copper, and are shielded from any further polishing action that may be taking place, so the parts that grab the copper get touched the least by any succeding rounds.
If that method is going to work at all, it need to be accompanied by cleaning after each round, to re-expose the fouled regions in the barrel. Otherwise, the only parts of the bore that get swept are the ones that are smooth already.
I don't use strong abrasives anywhere near a bore. About the roughest stuff I would consider are cleaning abrasives like JB or RemClean. The danger here is in washing out the rifling in the throat.
I coat the bullets of loaded ammo, simple stuff like American Eagle, or Winchester White Box, or Rem UMC, with one of the above cleaning agents, evenly and lightly, and give them some time to dry a little. The I fire and clean, one round at a time, until I've used up a box of 20. That's it.
This is enough to significantly alter the fouling characteristics of the barrel, while doing the absolute least amount of wear possible to the throat.
In my experience this has delivered some very accurate barrels. Whether they shoot better after than before is a good question, but they clean up a lot easier, and stay accurate for more rounds before cleaning become beneficial to accuracy.
This is important for shooters who shoot a lot of rounds in a session, like Highpower shooters in the National Match Course. The Matches I used to shoot ran at least 52 rounds, and probably 10 or 15 more with sighters and foulers. In some Tactical Matches, it may involve 20 round stages. It is not unusual to find yourself firing the whole match without getting any opportunity to clean. Just when you're counting on the most accuracy, as when you fire 22 rounds of prone slowfire, you find your barrel is shooting its worst, due to fouling.
Time can be a factor too. Firing more quickly heats the barrel, and can contribute to groups opening up. Combine that with a heavy fouling barrel, and you might end up watching your 10's turn into 9's or 8's due to increased dispersion. Obviously, a barrel which fouls less is advantageous.
Would I firelap a custom barrel? Nope. Would I firelap a factory barrel? I do, as a matter of course, with each rifle I buy, new or used; right after performing a major cleaning, to ensure I'm dealing with a bare bore, not a coppered one.
Why firelap used barrels? I find that used guns almost always get sold because they're no longer accurate. In most of the cases I've encountered, once they get a really good cleaning, they get accurate again. I firelap them because I want them to stay that way.
Greg
Looks like the predominate thought is that factory barrels benefit from the Tubbs lapping system. That agrees with I got from a tech at Sierra Bullets. Sounds to me like it is a good idea so I'll order a kit on Monday. I can appreciate the various positions on the subject and think that is the right one for me. Thanks, Jim