FFL questions(again)

[johnwilliamson062]

Everyone's dream, right?
Well, I have thought about it for a while and I have a buddy who has some empty commercial/office location I might be bale to start out in for a pretty fair price.
We ran into some problems though. At first I want to start out ordering and doing transfers with no static inventory. I don't want to keep any firearms at the office location when I am not there as it will not be extremely secure. I think someone indicated previously every location must be on the FFL. I can't find any place to list the storage location (my house) on the app. Would that location be listed on my FFL license that I give out to everyone even if I do not receive shipments or see people there? If so there is little reason not to just run it out of my house.

If I am "open" an hour or two each morning/night by appointment and weekends will the ATFE be ok With that?

So you can only sell off premises at events, does that include local trap shoots, high-power matches, etc.? Do you need permission to set-up at an event?

Lets say the ATFE denies my application for an FFL due to them not considering it a business endeavor, does that green light me to do it without an FFL?

ATFE searches... Anyone actually limit the area of their residence involved in the business and successfully limit ATFE searches to that area?

 

[dogtown tom]

johnwilliamson062
I don't want to keep any firearms at the office location when I am not there as it will not be extremely secure. I think someone indicated previously every location must be on the FFL.

Only your premises address and mailing address are on the actual license.

I can't find any place to list the storage location (my house) on the app.

If all you are doing is storing firearms at that location it doesn't need to be on the FFL. ATF does ask that you notify them of any additional locations. See bottom left column of page 8:
http://www.atf.gov/publications/newsletters/ffl/ffl-newsletter-2006-03.pdf

Would that location be listed on my FFL license that I give out to everyone even if I do not receive shipments or see people there? If so there is little reason not to just run it out of my house.

Nope.
The only address that will be on your FFL are your premises and mailing address. Although these are public record you don't have to publicize either.

If I am "open" an hour or two each morning/night by appointment and weekends will the ATFE be ok With that?

The "business hours" that ATF requires on your application are the hours you expect to devote time and attention to your business.....and will also be the hours that ATF can make an unannounced compliance inspection. They are not necessarily the same as your "public" business hours.

So you can only sell off premises at events, does that include local trap shoots, high-power matches, etc.? Do you need permission to set-up at an event?

Your license allows you to conduct business at two locations:
1. Your licensed premises
2. A gun show or other special event.

You would only need the permission of the event organizers.

See cfr478.50 http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/tex...node=27:3.0.1.2.3&idno=27#27:3.0.1.2.3.4.1.10

There are requirements that the gun show or special event must meet.
See 478.100 http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&rgn=div5&view=text&node=27:3.0.1.2.3&idno=27#27:3.0.1.2.3.6.1.10

Lets say the ATFE denies my application for an FFL due to them not considering it a business endeavor, does that green light me to do it without an FFL?

Ummmm........it would be a green light all right, plus a 70mph ride to federal prison. You cannot engage in the business of dealing in firearms without a Federal Firearms License.

ATFE searches... Anyone actually limit the area of their residence involved in the business and successfully limit ATFE searches to that area?

ATF is limited to one unannounced compliance inspection per year. This is limited to your bound book, 4473's, multiple sale of handgun forms and your inventory of firearms.........thats it.

They won't go looking in your sock drawyer or digging up your back yard. To do that would require a search warrant based on probable cause that a crime has been committed and signed by a judge. If they have a search warrant it will have every address listed where they suspect evidence of a crime may be found.

At my last compliance inspection the IOI sat at my dining room table the entire time...I brought out the guns he wanted to verify vs bound book entries. I had my tubs of 4473's stacked and waiting. He was there two hours and was professional, efficient and helpful with the questions I asked.

BTW....many licensees have never seen a compliance inspection.....there are not enough IOI's to do one every year even if they wanted. This was my first one in four years.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Keep in mind that (I believe ... I am not an FFL) the compliance inspection generally consists of verifying the bound book against the inventory. The agent will run a finger down the acquisitions side of the book, pick a firearm at random, and say "Show me the Megaforce Magnum Blaster serial number 123456789."

You want to store the firearms at home because your "business" premises aren't secure. Are you then not opening yourself up to allowing the BATFE to inspect your home? The purpose of the compliance check is to verify that you have listings for the guns, and guns to match the listings. If the guns aren't at the place of "business," I have a feeling the agent will pretty much say, 'Well, then, let's just go where the guns are," and I suspect he would be justified in saying that.

 

[dogtown tom]

Aguila Blanca Keep in mind that (I believe ... I am not an FFL) the compliance inspection generally consists of verifying the bound book against the inventory. The agent will run a finger down the acquisitions side of the book, pick a firearm at random, and say "Show me the Megaforce Magnum Blaster serial number 123456789."

You want to store the firearms at home because your "business" premises aren't secure. Are you then not opening yourself up to allowing the BATFE to inspect your home? The purpose of the compliance check is to verify that you have listings for the guns, and guns to match the listings. If the guns aren't at the place of "business," I have a feeling the agent will pretty much say, 'Well, then, let's just go where the guns are," and I suspect he would be justified in saying that.

Correct, at the compliance inspection the IOI (Industry Operations Investigator aka beancounter) will compare bound book (record of aquisitions & dispositions) vs 4473's vs inventory. If you have dispositions but no matching 4473 or inventory with no matching record of aquisition........uh oh.

ATF can examine any location where you are storing firearms or conducting business.

****Note
Typically ATF will call ahead to schedule the compliance inspection for "kitchen table" dealers.....they do not have to, but as my IOI told me it saves a lot of time and gas to do so.

 

[johnwilliamson062]

Thanks for the great info. If I go through with it I will have to go back and read all the old newsletters.

Lets say the ATFE denies my application for an FFL due to them not considering it a business endeavor, does that green light me to do it without an FFL?
Ummmm........it would be a green light all right, plus a 70mph ride to federal prison. You cannot engage in the business of dealing in firearms without a Federal Firearms License.

I wasn't serious as much as pointing out an ATFE Catch-22. My concern is with only limited regular hours they will say it is not a business, but if I tried it without an FFL they would certainly say that it was in fact a business. I have heard they have become much more strict on the issuance of new small FFL licenses the last few years. As a federal government entities they can have this sort of double definition of what a business is.

 

[dogtown tom]

johnwilliamson062 ......I wasn't serious as much as pointing out an ATFE Catch-22. My concern is with only limited regular hours they will say it is not a business,

It's not a Catch 22 and no, they won't say "you have too few hours to be considered a business". What they'll say is "your hours are not indicative of someone who is serious about engaging in the business of dealing in firearms".

Think about it.....if you put:
Mon closed
Tue closed
Wed 7-9am
Thursday closed
Friday closed
Saturday 7-9am
Sunday closed

Does that look like someone who really intends to be in the business? Or a hobby? To me it looks like someone wants to have an FFL without actually engaging in the business........thats personal use and a license is not issued for personal use.

Guess what? When ATF conducts your first compliance inspection and discovers that you've transferred firearms only to yourself......you'll likely not have your license renewed. While there is no magic number you do have to be engaged in the BUSINESS of dealing in firearms, you do want to show its not being used only for acquiring personal firearms.

but if I tried it without an FFL they would certainly say that it was in fact a business. I have heard they have become much more strict on the issuance of new small FFL licenses the last few years. As a federal government entities they can have this sort of double definition of what a business is.

There is no such thing as a "small FFL".......everyone applying for a license is held to the same standard and requirements. There are "kitchen table" dealers whose gross profit exceeds those with a storefront. One of the largest dealers in Texas didn't get a storefront for over a decade....he grossed millions at gunshows and did nearly nothing at his home (his licensed premises).

There is no double standard.....if you engage in the business of dealing in firearms you must be licensed. Period.

Again, The "business hours" that ATF requires on your application are the hours you expect to devote time and attention to your business......like surfing GunBroker and counting the wads of cash you will be raking in They are not necessarily the same as your "public" business hours.

 

[johnwilliamson062]

I fail to see how the ATFE turning down someone for a license b/c they do not believe planned endeavor meets the criteria of operating a business, then turning around and charging someone with a crime for operating a business by following through with that plan is not a Catch-22. It is two sets of standards for the same situation. That is the definition of "catch-22."

The only way I could possibly purchase enough guns to make a license worth while would be if the business was successful. I am looking at a cost somewhere around $3000 a year. That far exceeds my yearly expenditure on transfer fees.

 

[dogtown tom]

johnwilliamson062 I fail to see how the ATFE turning down someone for a license b/c they do not believe planned endeavor meets the criteria of operating a business, then turning around and charging someone with a crime for operating a business by following through with that plan is not a Catch-22. It is two sets of standards for the same situation. That is the definition of "catch-22."

Uh....the "standard" is Federal law: The US Code and the Code of Federal Regulations.
Engaging in the business of dealing in firearms requires a Federal Firearms License BECAUSE Federal law prohibits engaging in the business of dealing in firearms WITHOUT a Federal Firearms License.

The FFL is a "shall issue".........if you meet the requirements, you get the FFL.
If you don't meet the requirements...no FFL and its not because of a Catch 22, double standard, or Mayor Bloomberg.


Good luck