I was just curious what people feel about bi-metal ammo, specifically brands like Tulammo and Wolf? My question is primarily regarding .223 and barrel wear in bolt action rifles. I've seen many answer for and many answer against. I've also read a couple of articles on the topic, but they were subjective, to say the least, including things that people normally would not do, like shoot 10k rounds through an AR15 without cleaning it. Thanks in advance.
Feelings on bi-metal ammo?
- Thread starter Gabe1972
- Start date
I appreciate the reply. The reason I asked this is that I have been looking for months for FMJ rounds at Walmart and other places, including my LGS, and no one had any. On one trip to Walmart, they had a shelf full of Tulammo. I knew that it was steel cased, and I knew some of the problems that can arise from steel cased cartridges, but I decided to get two boxes as they were under $6 per box. Nowhere on the package does it say that it's bi-metal, and I only found this out after researching it after the purchase. I am hesitant to use it because of the articles I've read and because running steel against steel rifling just didn't seem like a wise thing to do.
Normally I would research something before buying it, but this was one of those "I had better get it while they have it" things. I have a .223 Savage Axis, which of course is not chrome lined. I'm sitting on the ammo, which isn't bothering me because is was so cheap. Here in NY State, we can't buy ammo online anymore so the LGSs are almost always sold out, and they are expensive as can be because they know we don't have a choice. Walmart is just as bad. I found some Wolf Gold at said LGS for $14 per box, which is awful, but at least it's brass cased and uses standard copper jacketed lead.
I just wanted to gauge what people thought of bi-metal ammo. If I can't find ammo someday and I have a real itch for target practice I may want to use it, but if the consensus is that it's probably not a good idea, I won't. I know that regular ammo is definitely better. The reason I am primarily looking at FMJ is because prices for the other types is awful. A box of soft point Winchester for $22 at Walmart. For target practice the type really doesn't matter, but the cost sure does. $1.10 per round is ludicrous, as is $.70 for the Wolf Gold. I know I can order ammo online and have it shipped to my LGS, but they charge varying fees. I will keep looking at Walmart for an alternative. I also can't use 5.56 in my gun, though some people say to do it anyway. That's something I won't compromise on, though.
Anyway, thanks again for the reply.
Normally I would research something before buying it, but this was one of those "I had better get it while they have it" things. I have a .223 Savage Axis, which of course is not chrome lined. I'm sitting on the ammo, which isn't bothering me because is was so cheap. Here in NY State, we can't buy ammo online anymore so the LGSs are almost always sold out, and they are expensive as can be because they know we don't have a choice. Walmart is just as bad. I found some Wolf Gold at said LGS for $14 per box, which is awful, but at least it's brass cased and uses standard copper jacketed lead.
I just wanted to gauge what people thought of bi-metal ammo. If I can't find ammo someday and I have a real itch for target practice I may want to use it, but if the consensus is that it's probably not a good idea, I won't. I know that regular ammo is definitely better. The reason I am primarily looking at FMJ is because prices for the other types is awful. A box of soft point Winchester for $22 at Walmart. For target practice the type really doesn't matter, but the cost sure does. $1.10 per round is ludicrous, as is $.70 for the Wolf Gold. I know I can order ammo online and have it shipped to my LGS, but they charge varying fees. I will keep looking at Walmart for an alternative. I also can't use 5.56 in my gun, though some people say to do it anyway. That's something I won't compromise on, though.
Anyway, thanks again for the reply.
bamaranger
New member
common
Ammo in .223 seems pretty common.......not sure what your situation is in NY, but we are about back to normal here w/ .223, except for the higher prices.
Personally, I would not run steel cased ammo through a quality/sporter bolt rifle except as an absolute last resort. And I'd not really be to keen on it in an AR either, lots of bad press in that dept. I stopped using it in my Mini30 as well.
Why roll the dice on the possible wear on your rifle, when brass cased, copper/lead ammo is still plentiful?
Your comments regards on line ammo were interesting. Is it not possible to have ammo delivered to your residence in NY????
Ammo in .223 seems pretty common.......not sure what your situation is in NY, but we are about back to normal here w/ .223, except for the higher prices.
Personally, I would not run steel cased ammo through a quality/sporter bolt rifle except as an absolute last resort. And I'd not really be to keen on it in an AR either, lots of bad press in that dept. I stopped using it in my Mini30 as well.
Why roll the dice on the possible wear on your rifle, when brass cased, copper/lead ammo is still plentiful?
Your comments regards on line ammo were interesting. Is it not possible to have ammo delivered to your residence in NY????
stubbicatt
New member
Accepting as true the accelerated wear of barrels caused by steel cased, bimetal jacketed bullets, I have come to accept that barrels are wear items that will need replacement as they wear out. Even a high quality barrel, headspaced and installed by a good gunsmith will be less than $600. Used to be you could get a pretty good AR15 barrel for a couple hundred dollars, which was a drop in replacement.
I do not keep track of the prices of store bought ammunition.
I do not know the barrel wear rate of gilding metal, brass cased, ammo, but as a rule of thumb replace my barrels when they begin to lose their accuracy, which with a 223 class barrel is about 3,500 round using these components.
An individual's accuracy requirements will vary, and his barrel may hold acceptable accuracy for him longer than it may for another.
I do not know the barrel wear rate of the steel cased, bi-metal jacketed bullets either.
It would be simple arithmetic to compare the wear rate versus the cost of ammunition to determine whether the savings in high volume practice ammunition is offset by the cost of a replacement barrel.
I do not keep track of the prices of store bought ammunition.
I do not know the barrel wear rate of gilding metal, brass cased, ammo, but as a rule of thumb replace my barrels when they begin to lose their accuracy, which with a 223 class barrel is about 3,500 round using these components.
An individual's accuracy requirements will vary, and his barrel may hold acceptable accuracy for him longer than it may for another.
I do not know the barrel wear rate of the steel cased, bi-metal jacketed bullets either.
It would be simple arithmetic to compare the wear rate versus the cost of ammunition to determine whether the savings in high volume practice ammunition is offset by the cost of a replacement barrel.
I find the whole bullet jacket "controversy" to be a total waste of time. Barrels are ordnance steel and jackets are (at best) mild steel. Unless you are firing hundreds or thousands of rounds through a gun, how much of a wear difference do you think there will be? How many of us fire enough rounds through a gun to wear the barrel out in a life-time? How many rounds will you shoot, and how fast, through any bolt-action?
I have lots of guns, I shoot every week, and I shoot/practice with whatever I find the cheapest. End of story.
I have lots of guns, I shoot every week, and I shoot/practice with whatever I find the cheapest. End of story.
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
bamaranger said:
The OP need only go to a Gander Mountain, at least if the several that I've been to in Watertown, Cicero and Binghamton are any indication. They all have literally tens of thousands of rounds of .223/5.56 ammo, all American Eagle or similar variety, IIRC, brass case, copper jacket, reloadable ammo.
tahunua001
New member
a couple years ago luckygunner.com(a large ammo sales conglomerate) decided to publish a 10,000 round torture test using 4 different types of ammo. using 4 identical bushmaster AR15s they gave each one 10,000 rounds of a different kind of ammo. Tula, Wolf, brown bear, and as a control group federal XM193. at the end of the test they cut the barrels, checked the recievers and tallied the number and type of failures.
XM193 had the least barrel wear, but also left the most crud behind in the receiver(that surprised me). it had zero malfunctions in 10,000 rounds and showed no significant loss in accuracy.
brown bear left the cleanest internals but suffered noticeable loss of accuracy at 6000 round mark. it had 9 malfunctions, 5 stuck casings, 3 short strokes and 1 failure that was determined to be magazine related.
Wolf also suffered noticeable loss of accuracy at about 6000 round mark with 15 failures, all stuck casings. both wolf and bear barrels were completely shot out by the end of 10,000 rounds.
Tula did not finish the test, it didn't even make it to 1000 rounds, the number of failures were holding up the test so the Tula rifle was dropped from testing.
this should be taken with a grain of salt. this was 10,000 rounds fired in a few short weeks. nobody, not even professional shooters put that much ammo down range that quickly. the heat generated from all that rapid fire greatly accelerated wear and it is doubtful that if those had been 10,000 rounds over the course of years instead of days that the wear would have been so significant.
personally? I shoot wolf from my AR, in fact it's the most accurate factory ammo in that rifle, I don't shoot tula from it. I do shoot large amounts of tula and wolf from my SKS and don't notice much difference in reliability from them though the wolf is much more consistent.
XM193 had the least barrel wear, but also left the most crud behind in the receiver(that surprised me). it had zero malfunctions in 10,000 rounds and showed no significant loss in accuracy.
brown bear left the cleanest internals but suffered noticeable loss of accuracy at 6000 round mark. it had 9 malfunctions, 5 stuck casings, 3 short strokes and 1 failure that was determined to be magazine related.
Wolf also suffered noticeable loss of accuracy at about 6000 round mark with 15 failures, all stuck casings. both wolf and bear barrels were completely shot out by the end of 10,000 rounds.
Tula did not finish the test, it didn't even make it to 1000 rounds, the number of failures were holding up the test so the Tula rifle was dropped from testing.
this should be taken with a grain of salt. this was 10,000 rounds fired in a few short weeks. nobody, not even professional shooters put that much ammo down range that quickly. the heat generated from all that rapid fire greatly accelerated wear and it is doubtful that if those had been 10,000 rounds over the course of years instead of days that the wear would have been so significant.
personally? I shoot wolf from my AR, in fact it's the most accurate factory ammo in that rifle, I don't shoot tula from it. I do shoot large amounts of tula and wolf from my SKS and don't notice much difference in reliability from them though the wolf is much more consistent.
bamaranger, that's what I figured with regard to rolling the dice, but I just wanted to gauge other people's feelings on it. As for having ammo delivered to my residence, that's a no, as NY now has the wonderful, extremely controversial SAFE Act, which is even going to go so far as to require a background check, just like when you buy a rifle, every time you buy ammo at a chain store or LGS. They just haven't been able to figure out a system for all of the LGS and other stores that will work with ease. Nice, huh?
stubbicatt, I know that all barrels wear, but I just wanted to see if other people thought that bi-metal wears barrels faster. All vehicle engines die, but if you used a cheap oil that may kill it faster, you would use the better stuff instead. Same thing. Just gauging people's opinions.
jonnyc, that's true that barrels are made from a much harder steel than the mild steel used in bi-metal, but again, like I said above, I'm trying to gauge if people are of the opinion that it will wear the barrel faster than regular ammo. There could be a negligible difference or a large difference, and that's why I'm asking people as maybe someone has their own experience with this.
Brian, my closest Gander Mountain is 40 miles from here, and, for reasons I won't discuss on here, I am limited in where I can go to get the ammo. I'm not saying that I won't ever get there, just haven't thus far and will probably be a while. Thanks for the info on their stock, though. If I am out that way I will definitely stop.
tahunua001, that article at Luckygunner is one of the main reasons I am asking people their opinions. I read it a while back. The reason I am asking is that my situation is a whole lot different than their test. They never cleaned and shot many rounds in a very short amount of time. I didn't know how much of an effect those things would have being that I won't be doing either of those things. It is a very interesting article, though. I found another one about bi-metal as well, but it wasn't as in depth and it talked a bit more about the construction of the round.
Anyway, thanks to everyone for their opinions on this. It's giving me the info I was looking for. I certainly appreciate it.
stubbicatt, I know that all barrels wear, but I just wanted to see if other people thought that bi-metal wears barrels faster. All vehicle engines die, but if you used a cheap oil that may kill it faster, you would use the better stuff instead. Same thing. Just gauging people's opinions.
jonnyc, that's true that barrels are made from a much harder steel than the mild steel used in bi-metal, but again, like I said above, I'm trying to gauge if people are of the opinion that it will wear the barrel faster than regular ammo. There could be a negligible difference or a large difference, and that's why I'm asking people as maybe someone has their own experience with this.
Brian, my closest Gander Mountain is 40 miles from here, and, for reasons I won't discuss on here, I am limited in where I can go to get the ammo. I'm not saying that I won't ever get there, just haven't thus far and will probably be a while. Thanks for the info on their stock, though. If I am out that way I will definitely stop.
tahunua001, that article at Luckygunner is one of the main reasons I am asking people their opinions. I read it a while back. The reason I am asking is that my situation is a whole lot different than their test. They never cleaned and shot many rounds in a very short amount of time. I didn't know how much of an effect those things would have being that I won't be doing either of those things. It is a very interesting article, though. I found another one about bi-metal as well, but it wasn't as in depth and it talked a bit more about the construction of the round.
Anyway, thanks to everyone for their opinions on this. It's giving me the info I was looking for. I certainly appreciate it.
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
Well, the new Cabela's in Cheektowaga opens in 7 days.
As far as I know, most retailers are still shipping ammo to NY because the state brilliantly included no actual method for providing for background checks for ammo so that entire portion of the law is on hold, probably permanently since there is no existing method and I don't see them getting funding through to start a whole new system.
Otherwise, a trip across the PA border and you're in business. Make a day trip to Cabela's in Hamburg, PA. They've got ammo coming out their ears too and it's well worth the trip. Get a Legend Burger while you're there.
Or, just suck it up and go to Gander.
As far as I know, most retailers are still shipping ammo to NY because the state brilliantly included no actual method for providing for background checks for ammo so that entire portion of the law is on hold, probably permanently since there is no existing method and I don't see them getting funding through to start a whole new system.
Otherwise, a trip across the PA border and you're in business. Make a day trip to Cabela's in Hamburg, PA. They've got ammo coming out their ears too and it's well worth the trip. Get a Legend Burger while you're there.
Or, just suck it up and go to Gander.
Brian, I saw that about Cabela's as well. Retailers still are getting ammo, they just sell out of it very quickly because everyone is looking for it, being that no one can buy online anymore. The guy at Walmart told me that there are people who actually show up on the day of their shipments and wait for the ammo to be stocked. They do this on a regular basis and it's often the same people.
And no, they don't have the system in place to do the checks yet and I hope that they never do. Can you imagine going in to buy a piddly box of .22LR ammo and having to do a background check? Ridiculous.
I will try to get to Cabela's and Gander and places like that eventually. As for right now it's just my local Walmart and my LGS.
I'm going to Walmart on Saturday and who knows... I may get lucky. If not, as I said in an earlier post, my local LGS has a ton of the Wolf Gold, but he's charging an arm and a leg for it. Literally. At least he used some lidocaine when removing my left arm so it didn't hurt too badly. J/K.
And no, they don't have the system in place to do the checks yet and I hope that they never do. Can you imagine going in to buy a piddly box of .22LR ammo and having to do a background check? Ridiculous.
I will try to get to Cabela's and Gander and places like that eventually. As for right now it's just my local Walmart and my LGS.
I'm going to Walmart on Saturday and who knows... I may get lucky. If not, as I said in an earlier post, my local LGS has a ton of the Wolf Gold, but he's charging an arm and a leg for it. Literally. At least he used some lidocaine when removing my left arm so it didn't hurt too badly. J/K.