Federal 209A Primers
- Thread starter Poconolg
- Start date
The Federal 209A is a magnum primer, the Winchester 209 is not. Load data for shotshells is very specific and there is not a lot of room for deviation from it. Generally, load data calling for a Federal 209A primer will use less powder than the same load data using a Winchester 209 primer. Hope that helps.
Don
Don
Shotshell Primer Comparison
Winchester 12-Ga. 2-3/4" AA Hull
17.0 Grains IMR 700-X Powder
Greenduster GT 9210-12 Wad
One Ounce No. 8 Lead Shot
Primer and Lot Velocity f.p.s. Chamber Pressure p.s.i.
Fed. 209A 03513 1251 (EV 14) 10,860 (EV 600)
Win. 209 NFL124 1246 (EV 22) 10,140 (EV 400)
Win. 209 MDL542 1224 (EV 30) 10,200 (EV 1700)
There doesn’t seem to be much practical difference in velocity, but certainly a difference in pressure with the Fed 209A primer. But how can one explain a drop in velocity and an increase in pressure between two lot numbers of the Win 209?
12-Gauge 2-3/4" Handload:
Fiocchi VIP plastic target hull (red, high basewad), once fired
Various primers
21.5 grains INTERNATIONAL CLAYS (Lot 2703L1592C)
HAWK wad (short crush section) 50 Ibs. seating force
1 oz. No. 8 West Coast Magnum lead shot (437.5 grs.)
8-pt. fold crimp
Crimp space: 1/2"
Primer and Lot Velocity (fps) Chamber Pressure (LUP)
Win. 209 / HAL021 1317 (ES 39) 9,400 (ES 1,400)
Fed. 209A / 03513 1331 (ES 43) 10,320 (ES 1,600)
Again, the Fed 209A produces a higher velocity and pressure with the same components. But the higher velocity and LOWER pressure with Win 209 in this example compared to the last example reveals the hull, powder and wad also influence velocity and pressure.
Winchester 12-Ga. 2-3/4" AA Hull
17.0 Grains IMR 700-X Powder
Greenduster GT 9210-12 Wad
One Ounce No. 8 Lead Shot
Primer and Lot Velocity f.p.s. Chamber Pressure p.s.i.
Fed. 209A 03513 1251 (EV 14) 10,860 (EV 600)
Win. 209 NFL124 1246 (EV 22) 10,140 (EV 400)
Win. 209 MDL542 1224 (EV 30) 10,200 (EV 1700)
There doesn’t seem to be much practical difference in velocity, but certainly a difference in pressure with the Fed 209A primer. But how can one explain a drop in velocity and an increase in pressure between two lot numbers of the Win 209?
12-Gauge 2-3/4" Handload:
Fiocchi VIP plastic target hull (red, high basewad), once fired
Various primers
21.5 grains INTERNATIONAL CLAYS (Lot 2703L1592C)
HAWK wad (short crush section) 50 Ibs. seating force
1 oz. No. 8 West Coast Magnum lead shot (437.5 grs.)
8-pt. fold crimp
Crimp space: 1/2"
Primer and Lot Velocity (fps) Chamber Pressure (LUP)
Win. 209 / HAL021 1317 (ES 39) 9,400 (ES 1,400)
Fed. 209A / 03513 1331 (ES 43) 10,320 (ES 1,600)
Again, the Fed 209A produces a higher velocity and pressure with the same components. But the higher velocity and LOWER pressure with Win 209 in this example compared to the last example reveals the hull, powder and wad also influence velocity and pressure.
A common recommendation is to follow the recipes offered in various publications to avoid any mishaps through personal experimentation.
I'm guessing that Poconolg has one primer but found a recipe that calls for the other. I share that experience. I feel comfortable changing the primer if I can find a recipe that calls for that primer with the expectation that the pressures generated don't exceed SAAMI levels for that gauge.
For example, in the comparisons I posted above, if all you have are Fed 209A primers, you'll need the hulls, powder and wads listed in both of the recipes that use the Fed 209A. If you only have Winchester AA hulls, Red Dot powder, AA wads and a recipe calls for Win 209 primers, you need to search the available resources for the use of those components with the Fed 209A. All that may be required is a reduction in the charge of Red Dot. But don't guess and do it on your own.
I'm guessing that Poconolg has one primer but found a recipe that calls for the other. I share that experience. I feel comfortable changing the primer if I can find a recipe that calls for that primer with the expectation that the pressures generated don't exceed SAAMI levels for that gauge.
For example, in the comparisons I posted above, if all you have are Fed 209A primers, you'll need the hulls, powder and wads listed in both of the recipes that use the Fed 209A. If you only have Winchester AA hulls, Red Dot powder, AA wads and a recipe calls for Win 209 primers, you need to search the available resources for the use of those components with the Fed 209A. All that may be required is a reduction in the charge of Red Dot. But don't guess and do it on your own.
I have some "old" Win 209 and CCI 209, along with pretty "new" Remington labeled as 97 (209) and a bunch of Federal 209.
None of these obviously, are the same as the newer reloading recipes offer: CCI 209M, Remo 209P and Fed 209A.
So I'm in the same boat and today I had to violate the advice I gave above. I was using 800-X powder in 12 Ga, 1-1/8oz loads and finding unburned powder all over the place. I reported this on a different thread and was advised to try Green Dot.
All I could find was 1-oz loads with "newer" primers. Now what? One recipe advised 18.2gr of Green Dot with a Win AA hull and WAA12 wad and a Win 209 primer; another was 19.1gr of GreenDot with a Rem 209P. Both pressures were in the 8000 to early 9000 range (same units).
So I loaded 2 Win AA hulls with 18.5gr of Green Dot and Win 209 primers; the same with Rem "97 (209)" that I had. I found I could use black Remington hulls as the internal composition appeared to be the same, so I duplicated those previous loads in those hulls.
Off to the range I went and fired all into sheets of paper on a target board 265 yards away. There was no obvious change in recoil or discharge sound. The shot spread in all groups were essentially the same (dependent on my point of aim).
So I am of the opinion I can interchange these primers in these loads with these components. The next experiment is with the Federal 209's as I have many more of those.
None of these obviously, are the same as the newer reloading recipes offer: CCI 209M, Remo 209P and Fed 209A.
So I'm in the same boat and today I had to violate the advice I gave above. I was using 800-X powder in 12 Ga, 1-1/8oz loads and finding unburned powder all over the place. I reported this on a different thread and was advised to try Green Dot.
All I could find was 1-oz loads with "newer" primers. Now what? One recipe advised 18.2gr of Green Dot with a Win AA hull and WAA12 wad and a Win 209 primer; another was 19.1gr of GreenDot with a Rem 209P. Both pressures were in the 8000 to early 9000 range (same units).
So I loaded 2 Win AA hulls with 18.5gr of Green Dot and Win 209 primers; the same with Rem "97 (209)" that I had. I found I could use black Remington hulls as the internal composition appeared to be the same, so I duplicated those previous loads in those hulls.
Off to the range I went and fired all into sheets of paper on a target board 265 yards away. There was no obvious change in recoil or discharge sound. The shot spread in all groups were essentially the same (dependent on my point of aim).
So I am of the opinion I can interchange these primers in these loads with these components. The next experiment is with the Federal 209's as I have many more of those.
