Federal 10mm 200gr HST in Vyse Ballistics Gel.

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Test Gun: Glock 20.
Barrel length: 4.6 Inches.
Ammunition: Federal 10mm 200gr HST.
Test media: 10% Vyse Ballistics Gel.
Distance: 10 feet.
Chronograph: Caldwell Ballistic Precision Chronograph G2.
Five shot velocity average: 1078fps
BB Calibration: 3.75inches

https://general-cartridge.com/2020/08/11/federal-10mm-200gr-hst-in-vyse-ballistics-gel/
 
Sounds like a good 10mm Auto SD Load, but not quite $1.60 per round good. Honestly, the performance is no better than the .40 S&W equivalent load, and that's going for a much less painful .90¢ per round online.

These pandamic prices on ammo are completely absurd. I understand how supply and demand works, but somehow I doubt that there are enough folks buying 10mm Auto SD Loads to warrant that much of a price increase.
 
About 200fps off Buffalo Bore & Underwood 200gr pills and about the same as Double-Tap's 200gr .40S&W load. And about the same velocity Federal loads its 180gr .40S&W HST load. But hard to argue with the terminal results.

Looks like Federal designs an HST projectile, gets it right with the most popular cartridge in that diameter, and then engineers the powder load to match the optimal velocity for the projectile. I bet 180gr .40 S&W HST and 200gr 10mm HST are identical from tip of round back to when ther 180gr peters out.

Would be nice to see 10mm loads designed to fire at 10mm velocities, not .40S&W velocities. Oh, well, at $31.99, you're getting into Buff Bore prices and exceeding Underwood prices.
 
the round performed well considering.... looks like the perfect round for people who want to carry a 10mm without using 10mm power. much like a 44 magnum loaded with 44 specials.
 
@jfruser

To be fair, if this stuff were loaded to full-power 10mm specs, then the bullet would likely either penetrate less due to expanding faster without much of a tangible benefit, overpenetrate without expanding as much because it just zipped straight through the block, or get torn to shreads inside the block due to being pushed so far ahead of the velocity/pressure it was designed for, without resulting in any significant increase in damage to the Gel Block.

They would have to design a bullet specifically for 10mm Auto, but ultimately it wouldn't really make much of a difference. Unfortunately, defensive handgun rounds have pretty much hit their apex, with all of them capable of achieving passing results FBI/IWBA Testing Protocol, hence the growing sentiment that there's really no point in carrying anything over 9mm Luger, as more powerful cartridges beget diminishing returns within the parameters of modern testing protocol.
Can more powerful cartridges do more outside of said parameters? Absolutely, bullets with greater mass/energy tend to beget much more dramatic results when they collide with bones for instance, but until the FBI or IWBA deside to amend current Ballistics Gel Testing protocol to include synthetic or otherwise organic bone embedded within ballistics gel, none of that effect would be visible in gel tests.

So handgun ballistics have effectively stagnated until someone finds a way to make handgun cartridges perform more like rifle cartridges, pushing bullets at extremely high velocity in excess of 2500fps without penetrating any deeper than 18" in Ballistics Gel and dumping enough energy in the gel to cause remote wounding effects, yet still maintaining a level of felt recoil low enough for most shooters to find tolerable in firearms small/ lightweight enough to carry.
Currently, the only handgun cartridges capable of the necessary mass/velocity/energy to generate remote wounding effects are extremely powerful magnum cartridges like .454 Cassul and beyond.
 
HST/Gold Dot is bonded.

So there is literally nothing it can do differently. It won't break up, it won't expand more.

So yeah, I personally think 40 does it better.
 
Wild cat, does Federal make a 200 gr HST for the 40 S&W? I could not find it. Please post its specs so we can compare it to the 200 GR HST in 10mm.
 
It just came out along with the Gold Dot 10mm 200gr.

I would have to check.


Gosh darn that thing. I'm going to have to do some digging to see where Federal hosts it. I didn't immediately see it.

Edit, here it is: https://le.vistaoutdoor.com/wound_ballistics/load_comparison/load_comparison.aspx

Remember, HST/Gold Dot Federal/Speer/CCI are owned by the same company, Vista Outdoors, owned by defense contractor Northrup.

No. No 10mm listed. However, it is listed on Federal's "Ballistic Calculator" on their website.

Simply put, a hollow point can't do magic simply by going faster. Not bonded, it's going to break up. Since it's bonded, it's just going to open faster when going faster. There a several gel tests where we see Underwood loads going shallower BECAUSE they are going faster. HST/Gold Dots are loaded by Federal/Speer kinda pointlessly low for 10mm. XTP in 10mm is going to max expansion which is lower but go deeper because it's XTP (where penetration is the point). Any faster and I don't think you gain anything at all in any current bullet.

If 20grs makes it worth it to you in 10mm, okay. No personal care there. But to say it makes the 10mm anything magical above even the 9mm HST loades? By data, I'm not seeing those results in standardized gel that warrant a the harder squeeze to get the juice.
 
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"Bullet designs like the Silver Tip, Hydra-Shok, and Black Talon were state of the art 15 or 20 years ago. These older bullets tend to plug up and act like FMJ projectiles when shot through heavy clothing; they also often have significant degradation in terminal performance after first passing through intermediate barriers. Modern ammunition which has been designed for robust expansion against clothing and intermediate barriers is significantly superior to the older designs. The bullets in the Federal Classic and Hydrashok line are outperformed by other ATK products such as the Federal Tactical and HST, as well as the Speer Gold Dot; likewise Winchester Ranger Talons are far superior to the old Black Talons or civilian SXT's." Dr. Gary Roberts on pistol-forum.com

10mm loads in older rounds vs newer loads with less velocity--take the newer HST/Gold Dot with lower speeds.
 
WCM:

I think your Roberts' quote 100% accurate--when limited to the usual service cartridges from .38spl+P up through 9mm/.45ACP/.40S&W. For those cartridges, the recent projectile design developments have been a boon, no doubt. HST pills seem to perform in FBI spec with terrific consistency. When the Kartridge Krayzee Tyme ends, I will buy a bunch up and test for function in my SD pistols that could benefit from HST.

But Roberts' quote is not valid when the projectile velocity dips below or rises above the usual service cartridge velocity envelope. Below .38spl (and in 158gr or weightier std pressure .38spl), HP of any sort is arguably the wrong answer, especially given the FBI penetration standards. And we have decades' worth of data showing that cartridges moving along at higher velocities have always done just peachy with old-tech hollow point technology.

.357mag
Plenty of experience with old school Rem/Fed/Win JHP/SJHP .357mag in 125-158gr weights. Barrier blind, expand like crazy, disrupt the heck out of tissue, yet do not overpenetrate. Latter-day gel tests show what early users saw. Old school 110gr JHP tend to be borderline on penetration and 180gr JHP skew deep. And when I write "old school" I mean JHP that pre-date Hydrashok, Silvertip, etc.

10mm
Like .357mag, but more so with the old school JHP. 10mm cartridges loaded to 10mm velocity does not need HST innovation.

.44mag
Like .357mag & 10mm. I had always thought the reason .44mag was not an ideal SD cartridge was due to overpenetration. Well, not so much in JHP, given the penetration tests I have seen. It is even more disruptive than .357mag & 10mm, but still does not penetrate like crazy. Still has lots of recoil and muzzle blast, though.

======================

Federal has done a good thing with HST, but HST does not erase all that we have learned over the decades. And I will be surprised if, in the years to come, we see HST in .38/.40/.45/9mm do as much living tissue damage as old school .357mag & 10mm auto JHP. That is TBD, as HST has little track record vs live hairless bipeds and game animals.

And, again, I think Federal keeps 10mm HST loaded at .40S&W levels due to its re-use of the .40S&W design on the front 180gr of the 10mm pill. If you have a 10mm and want to duplicate .40S&W HST performance, Fed has what you want. If you want all that HST can offer, plus more tissue disruption and flatter trajectory, JHP loads that run at true 10mm velocity is the answer.
 
If consistency is valid, I think the Luckygunner lab test section does prove 357mag also persists as a myth of higher degrees of expansion and penetration.


I've done this dance a bit and don't mean to derail.

I would say, this test doesn't show a reason to go buy a 10mm and load it HST.
 
The problem with Lucky Gunner's tests is that they were all conducted with synthetic Clear Ballistics Gel, which is less resistant yet more elastic than organic ballistics gel, ergo the results you get in Clear Ballistics Gel tend to show deeper penetration with smaller diameter wound channels. In addition, Clear Ballistics Gel is designed to melt down at a rather low temperatures so that it can easily be stored and reused, ergo on a hot enough day, wound track can be further diminished by the gel block beginning to melt down in ambient temperatures.
 
Forte:

Ayup.

If one is going to use the FBI specs as the standard, gotta use their media for it to mean much of anything. With the luckygunner data I look at the following:
1. Relative penetration, usually vs an old standby load (like .38spl+P swaged LSWCHP from 4" bbl or ~950fps).
2. If HP, does it open up and if yes, how much relative to an old standby.

I am old enough to recall gun writers using all sort of different media and even having debates on the merits of "wet pack" paper vs "dry pack" paper and all that. In retrospect, that was all BS, except to compare relative penetration in that media.

And even the FBI spec media is not necessarily all that meaningful other than being a common standard with some relation to effectiveness on live 2-legged meat. I am not saying this is an "unknowable" problem, but that there are lots of variables involved that contemporary methodologies do not take into account.

Had I $$$ & time, I might attempt a conversion chart & formulae comparing the various media performance to the FBI standard which accounts for media composition, media temp, etc. Conversion formulae for penetration depth, HP expansion, pmt wound cavity volume, etc. Include a water tank with translucent side and super HD slow-mo camera to view the projectile in flight. That would be a fun project.
 
The Federal poster is using FBI spec gel...

Only reason Hornady was selected for FBI is it penetrates, with less expansion. Like Roberts said on Gold Dot, Gold G2 if you need car penetration otherwise HST/Gold Dot is the bee's knees. In 9mm.
 
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Appears to be nothing more than watered-down '40S&W' ammo that's premium-priced like 10mm ammo. :rolleyes:

So at a $1.60 a round, you're getting .40-level performance from the more expensive 10mm case? :confused:
 
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