Fed Marshalls sieze IBT in Indy

M

MIKE14

New member
As I type Federal Marshalls are taking possesion of Indiana Baptist Temple. They Blocked all streets surrounding IBT they went in and were physicaly removing church members on
gurneys.The Marshalls had a tactical bus several vans and various other support vehicles. I saw one man carrying a rifle case and taking position on the roof. They have removed Rev Dixon from the church. I will post any developments as they happen.

M-14 OUT
 
Here we see why there was never supposed to be any Federal Police in this country.

I'm not much on Religion to any degree, but this just stinks! What would John Adams say? Just imagine. Hell, what would King George say?
 
CNN's version

http://www.cnn.com/2001/LAW/02/13/church.irs.ap/index.html

Law enforcement seized church for tax lien
February 13, 2001
Web posted at: 9:53 AM EST (1453 GMT)

FindLaw Consumer Center Select a topic Bankruptcy Discrimination Divorce Estate Planning Landlord-Tenant Personal Injury Taxes
INDIANAPOLIS, Indiana (AP) -- Federal marshals seized the Indianapolis Baptist Temple on Tuesday to satisfy a $6 million tax debt, and wheeled its former pastor out on a gurney as he protested the move.

The U.S. Supreme Court had cleared the way for the seizure last month.

The Baptist Temple stopped withholding federal income and Social Security taxes from its employees' paychecks in 1984, saying the church's duty to obey God allowed no room for manmade laws and that withholding taxes would make it an agent of the government.

U.S. marshals rushed through a side door into the church, where six or seven people -- some who had been holding a vigil there for nearly three months -- were gathered in prayer.

"The purge has started," said the Rev. Greg J. Dixon, the church's pastor emeritus, as the marshals wheeled him out.

"We had a promise from the Bush administration. We had every reason to believe there was a moratorium. ... They were going to dismiss the case. We had a deal, and they welshed on the deal," Dixon said.

The current pastor, Dixon's son, the Rev. Greg A. Dixon, was not at the church when officers arrived but rushed to the scene and sat down in front of the building.

"The fight is still not over," the younger Dixon said. "We are going to continue this fight for religious liberty.

"They have trampled the First Amendment; they have desecrated a house of God," he said. "They have brought God's judgment down upon them, their souls, their wives, their children, their political careers. I feel sorry for them."

Federal marshals seized a parsonage a few miles from the church on November 14.

The judge's order had authorized marshals to seize the property by force if necessary.

The federal government until now had never seized a church for failing to pay taxes, said Richard Hammar, an attorney for the Springfield, Missouri-based Assemblies of God church and an expert on churches and tax law.

"To have the IRS come in and seize the church's property, that is an extraordinary event unparalleled in American history," Hammar has said.

Copyright 2001 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.
 
Fox News

http://www.foxnews.com/national/021301/church_irs.sml

Feds Seize Baptist Temple That Owes
$6 Million Tax Debt
Tuesday, February 13, 2001

INDIANAPOLIS — Federal marshals seized the Indianapolis Baptist Temple on Tuesday to satisfy a $6 million tax debt, and wheeled its former pastor out on a gurney as he protested the move.

The U.S. Supreme Court had cleared the way for the seizure last month.

The Baptist Temple stopped withholding federal income and Social Security taxes from its employees' paychecks in 1984, saying the church's duty to obey God allowed no room for manmade laws and that withholding taxes would make it an agent of the government.

U.S. marshals rushed through a side door into the church, where six or seven people — some of whom had been holding a vigil there for nearly three months — were gathered in prayer.

"The purge has started," said the Rev. Greg J. Dixon, the church's pastor emeritus, as the marshals wheeled him out.

"We had a promise from the Bush administration. We had every reason to believe there was a moratorium. ... They were going to dismiss the case. We had a deal, and they welshed on the deal," Dixon said.

No one was arrested and there were no injuries, authorities said.

The current pastor, Dixon's son, the Rev. Greg A. Dixon, was not at the church when officers arrived but rushed to the scene and sat down in front of the building.

"The fight is still not over," the younger Dixon said. "We are going to continue this fight for religious liberty.

"They have trampled the First Amendment; they have desecrated a house of God," he said. "They have brought God's judgment down upon them, their souls, their wives, their children, their political careers. I feel sorry for them."

Federal marshals seized a parsonage a few miles from the church on Nov. 14.

The judge's order had authorized marshals to seize the property by force if necessary.

The federal government until now had never seized a church for failing to pay taxes, said Richard Hammar, an attorney for the Springfield, Mo.-based Assemblies of God church and an expert on churches and tax law.

"To have the IRS come in and seize the church's property, that is an extraordinary event unparalleled in American history," Hammar has said.

--------------------
Seems CNN and FoxNews didn't think it was important enough to send a reporter.
 
The Baptist Temple stopped withholding federal income and Social Security taxes from its employees' paychecks in 1984, saying the church's duty to obey God allowed no room for manmade laws and that withholding taxes would make it an agent of the government.
Click to expand...


Sounds to me like Uncle Sam doesn't like it when the kids don't want to play the game anymore.

Good on'em!
 
My understanding of the situation is that the church OWES NO MONEY! They just stopped withholding taxes from their employee's paychecks. The employees were still responsible for paying their own taxes.

IIRC, withholding by employers was started during the Roosevelt Administration in the 40s as fiscal measure to keep the .gov afloat. It was not intended to be a permanent addition to the tax code. Of course, nothing is more permanent than a temporary government program...

This is infuriating to me. :mad: These federal marshals are Jack Booted Thugs in the truest sense of the term. :mad: :mad:

http://www.indianapolisbaptisttemple.com/index2.html
 
I'm glad it didn't get violent

Not the time nor the place.

Civil disobedience has its virtues. Now is the time to sue, sue, sue.
 
Did the taxes last night and found that my wife's school has not been withholding Social Security, nor did the restaurants she worked for withhold any Federal Income Tax at all. When we both worked for the college we were attending last year, they withheld absolutely nothing.

The fix for this is that we have to send a check to the government.

The fix is NOT that the school, college and two restaurants owe millions of dollars in back taxes. One side in this deal is simply lying through their teeth. Of course, I am a somewhat biased observer, but if I had to choose, I'd bet that's the federal government.
 
I am NOT for seizure of the church. However, to say that the church's duty to obey God allowed no room for manmade laws is nonsense. Consider Jesus said in Matthew 22:21 to "Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's." Paul in Romans 13:1-6 said to obey and pay tribute to the government.
If the church wanted to argue on constitutional grounds then that is one thing, and I might agree to a point, but to argue as they did is not correct. In this case I have to say the church is wrong. A church is accountable to God, but as an organization in a city there is a certain accountability to government. For example, would one say that the safety and fire requirements of a city do not apply to a church? Jerry
 
All right, Jerry, I'll take the bait

The First Amendment prohibits Congress (and by extension, the entire Fed.gov) from passing laws which infringe on establishment of a religion or the free exercise thereof.

Now, we have the IRS deciding who and what exactly qualifies as a church. Is that Constitutional? Essentially, you must register your church and hope nobody turns you in for activity that will make you lose your tax-exempt status.

Bad news. Roughly equivalent to firearms registration. Makes the free exercise of religion a privelege to be bestowed upon by the Imperial Revenue Service. Unelected, unnacountable dipwads get to decide what religion is.

If you want to fight it on principal, you must start, as this pastor did, with the initial premise that power is inherent in THE PEOPLE, not in the gubmint; that the gubmint derives its powers FROM THE PEOPLE, not the other way around. The gubmint cannot compel a church to act as its agent in collecting taxes without making law which infringes "the free exercise" of religion. Can you compel someone to do anything and make the claim that they have complete freedom? I think not.

It's about more than rendering that which belongs to Ceasar unto Ceaser, its about the manner that Ceasar collects that booty.
 
The First Amendment prohibits the Federal government from doing several things. One is, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion..."

The federal government has decided that a Church, to take advantage of the tax-free charity status must register.

There is a conflict there, somewhere.

Just another in a long line of reasons why the 16th amendment and the income tax should be abolished.

It is the only tax system that allows, nay, requires the government to spy on its citizens who work for a living.

Rick
 
All quotes from sectarian religious tomes aside; the fact is that the very concept of "withholding" is the only thing keeping the IRS building from being stormed a la the Bastille and a mob with dogs, torches, and pitchforks from turning up on the Capitol steps.

Just imagine if every Joe and Jane Workerdrone in this nation were allowed to take home their entire paycheck, and then sent a bill on April 15th. There'd be some mild repercussions, don't you think? But, thanks to the magic of 'withholding', if you ask Joe Average how much he paid in taxes last year, you'll get a vacuous smile in return, along with the comment "I didn't have to pay anything; I got a refund".
 
It has been written:

My understanding of the situation is that the church OWES NO MONEY! They just stopped withholding taxes from their employee's paychecks. The employees were still responsible for paying their own taxes.

Actually, this is not true. The Church does owe the taxes. In violation of IRS rules, they declared all of the employees of the church to be "self-employed ministers." The IRS is, and has been for a very long time, insistent that only those who are truly "ministers" according to their guidelines may file as "ministers". Teachers, secretaries, janitors, etc. do not qualify. This is what the Baptist Temple tried to pull off. They failed. This is not simply about withholding.

In a nutshell, here is what happened: They declared that their employees who weren't really ministers were now "ministers." The Church stopped collecting taxes from their employees,i.e., the newly created "ministers". These "ministers" then filed improperly as being self-employed when they were in fact employees. The IRS returned the money improperly sent in by the employees and told the church that they must submit the funds that the law requires.

The Church refused. That brings us to today. They failed to render unto Caesar that which is his. He came to get it. I'm sorry that they don't understand the Bible which also warns that you reap what you sow.

Pax,

viator
 
A church can be a church without a tax exempt status. However, that isn't what this is about. There is nothing in the Bible that says a local church is exempt from the laws of government, unless the government tells the church to do that which is contrary to Bible commands. There is not one thing that would permit them to do what they have done in any Bible passage. As a citizen I am to obey unless there is a direct conflict that I can point to a Biblical command or precept and establish the conflict. The same goes for the church. That church cannot do that in good scholarship. I am not arguing the constitutionality of their refusal. I personally think they are also wrong there. However, I am not a lawyer. I do know that the Bible does not permit them to do that which they have done. They are making it an issue of God vs government. There argument is not correct. If we are to be true to Scripture then we must not try to make it say what it doesn't say just to suit our purpose.
Personally, I wish there were no such thing as a tax exemption, and that we would pay a flat tax. That wouldn't impact the amount I give one cent. One should give from the heart as a good steward of Christ, and not to get a tax break. I take the tax break because it is there, but would be just as happy if there were no exemptions for anything and our taxes were reduced to a reasonable level. Jerry
 
viator,

The church has stated all along the issue isn't money, its control and subjugation. The required moneys were sent in by the "ministers" to the IRS. That should have satisfied the debt. Instead, the IRS returned the money, started assessing penalites, fines, interest. The only other agency that would gladly destroy an ongoing enterprise over a technical violation like this is the BATF, and I'd put them both in the same putrid boat.

Name another business that would refuse to accept payment on a debt because one party, instead of the other had to physically remit the money! Thats how far we've come from common sense. The "rules" become an end unto themselves.

If you read some of the church's positions, they fear that registration as a 501c3 organization would place them under government control regarding what they can teach in their school, and even what they may say from the pulpit. I think their fears are justified.
 
6 million? Is that all? Let's see the IRS go after Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton and the other Leftist "Pastors" with no visible means of support and totally political tools of the Left.

Wait a minute, they're Liberals. I forgot.
 
The lien was placed on the wrong place. The church itself was NOT LIABLE for ANY taxes. The individual employess ARE. If any liens were to be placed, they should have been on the properties of those persons not paying taxes for which they were liable.

I am appalled, but not shocked, that this has happened. I am also appalled at the number of people on this forum who have agreed with the actions of the government. The church did not say that its employees were not liable for taxes, just that it would not be an agent of the government in collecting those taxes.

I thought that the folks on this forum were about personal responsibility. If that were truly the case, you would condemn the government for seizing the property of a group based on the actions of several individuals. That is tantamount to saying that since some people misuse firearms, all of us ought to turn ours in.
 
So it comes down to one question: Did the employees pay less in taxes by filing as self-employed?

If so, they owe the difference. If not, they owe nothing.

If they owed the same amount, and they submitted the same amount, then all this comes from the IRS acting prissy and demanding that things be done their way (and their way requires that the IRS be allowed to tell the church who is and is not a minister in it.)

If they underpaid by filing wrong, why were the original payments returned? Those payments should have been kept and the balance demanded. Sounds like the whole thing still comes down to the IRS demanding that the church knuckle under and do things their way--by withholding.
 
Don,

As I understand it, many if not all of the church members in question underwent IRS audits, no violations were found.
 
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