FBI revolvers?

P

PonySoprano

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I was curious if any oldtimers, (or gun scholars) know what type of revolver the FBI issued in the early forties? My grandfather was an agent in and around Illinois and hearing my mom tell stories of his wheelgun are some of my first fond gun memories. I have no idea what ever became of his service pistol but I'd like to find something similar..ya know, for nostalgia. Pops passed when I was 8 or so, and I never got to hear any gun stories from the old Fox's mouth. I'm not a LEO or military but I'm starting my collection now, in the hope that my pieces will say a little about me someday to whatever little monsters spring forth from my as yet unborn monsters' loins.
 
I don't know if it was an issued weapon, but the S&W M27 with a 3 1/2" barrel was extremely popular with the agents.
 
Can't say for the 40s but during the 60s and 70s they issued square butt S&W Model 10 (M&P) with the 4" thin barrel. If you contact them in either WDC or Quantico, tell them who your grandfather was, and the general times he worked for the FBI they could probably look up some info for you. There's an organization of retired special agents that keep track of their history. They could probably hook you up with someone in that group. Or you could contact the Seattle field office and ask to speak to the police training coordinator and explain what you're looking for and why. He/she could probably put you in touch with the local retired SAs.
Where about in IL was he? I knew some of them who started just after WWII and were still with them in the late 60s and early 70s.
 
Probably in that time frame, the 3.5 inch .357 Magnum (pre-Model 27). It was a popular FBI weapon during that era. In November 1945, Life ran an article about FBI agent Jelly Bryce including a rather famous picture him firing his 3.5 inch .357 Magnum. I don't think there ever was just a whole lot uniformity in what the FBI carried.

Anyway, here's a link to the story: Jelly Bryce. It's just one of those stories everybody to ought to read.
 
juliet charley,

While the .357 Magnum was greatly desired by agents in the early 40's, it was nowhere near a "standard issue" weapon. The M&P appears to be the most common until the introduction of the Model 13 (which was normally carried with .38 Spl, anyway...)
 
The Model 27 (actually its pre-model number version) was virtually unavailable through most of the 1940s.

After WW II substantial numbers of Model 27s didn't become available until very late in the 1940s as the company realigned for post war production.

Prior to the outbreak of WW II the Model 27 was a VERY expensive (for the time) piece of kit that most agents simply wouldn't have been able to afford based on the pay scales at the time. It was also largely hand made and, much to S&W's surprise, was very popular to the point where the waiting list to get one occasionally went well over a year.

To the best of my knowledge the FBI never formally issued the Model 27, either. Standard issue was a 4" Military & Police in .38 Spl. or a similar Colt revolver, virtually the universal police firearms of the time.

Agents had the ability to arm themselves -- most didn't.

The first .357 Mag. weapon issued as standard by the FBI was the Model 13, and that happened sometime in the 1970s. Even then, agents had the ability to pick their own sidearms, and to the best of my knowledge, still do.
 
I was under the impression that the 3.5 inch pre-Model 27 was in a little wider use in the FBI nonetheless it was a popular choice. Like I said, there never was a lot of uniformity in what the FBI carried (unlike how they dress :) --first things first, I guess). The article about Jelly Bryce is still well worth reading for anyone who hasn't!
 
Bryce carried his S&W .357 Magnum in a TomThreepersons holster made by S D Myreson on his right side. This was a forward rake design (barrel angled to the rear, grip angled forward)
on ocassion he would carry a second S7W .357 in a short cross draw holster also made by Myres He was extremely fast with either holster..
 
It was actually in the 80s when the Mod 13 was issued. The thin barrel Mod 10 was being issued as late as 1979 that I know of. The Mod 27 was never an issued firearm. I only know of one agent who carried a 3.5" Mod 27 and he didn't carry it very long. 4" Mod 19 were popular but the most common personal purchase was the 2.5" Mod 19. Mod 27 was just too big and heavy to wear all day.
As Tamara said, even tho agents could carry .357 cal guns the policy was they were to be loaded with the 158 gr LSWCHP+P. .357 rds could be carried as a reload. The .357 loads were Rem or W-W non-HP 158 LSWC. Might have been a year or 2 that Fed had the contract, I can't remember for sure now.
 
Pony,

My father was an FBI Special Agent and firearms instructor (New York City, Washington SOG, Buffalo, Pittsburgh and Chicago) in the ‘40s and ‘50s; I can answer this question authoritatively, since he and I discussed it many times before he passed on a few years ago.

Agents were issued (during their initial Quantico training) N Frame (although not yet entitled that) Smith “38 on a 44 frame” 3.5 inch (and sometimes longer barrel) revolvers. Basically, these were quite similar to the Model 27s issued for many years thereafter. The issue ammunition was essentially .38 Special +P LCSWHPs (the so-called “FBI Load”).

Further, SAs had considerable latitude to carry personal sidearms (my dad often carried a pre-WW II Colt 1911A1, which I still use and which still performs superbly).
 
ISP,

The FBI took their first large delivery of Model 13s in 1974, with smaller deliveries every couple of years there after. At least that's what my records indicate.
 
"The FBI took their first large delivery of Model 13s in 1974,"

I was with the FBI 1971 to 1979. Now that I think about it towards the end of the 70s there were 13s hitting the field. I'd forgotten it was then they also started issuing a pancake style holster instead of the open top.
The field office SWAT guys were issued 4" round butt Mod 19s which were stamped from Naval Investigative Service.


"Further, SAs had considerable latitude to carry personal sidearms (my dad often carried a pre-WW II Colt 1911A1, which I still use and which still performs superbly)."

During the 60s and until Hoover died agents were not authorized to carry autos. Hoover considered autos to be gangster guns and he didn't want the agents to have that image. Every field office had 1911s in .38 Super that could be issued to agents working in an undercover capacity as it was believed that bad guys wouldn't think the agent was LE if caught carrying something like a .38 Super. Even into the 70s after Hoover the powers still maintained that mentality. I remember one agent carrying 2 S&W 59s in shoulder rig and getting severely reprimanded for carrying unauthorized weapons. He had gone with some NYPD cops after a guy named Bell who was a Top 10 and they got into a running gun battle. The agent laid some covering fire to keep Bell's head down while the NYPD cops could get in position and took him out. Great job, but wrong guns. HQ didn't take kindly to that kind of stuff.
 
When I was a kid in the 1950's and '60's, there were books about the FBI, to inform the public about the Bureau and probably to encourage their recruiting. The guns shown were usually Colt Official Police .38's, with a smattering of S&W's. Eventually, the S&W's came to predominate, mainly because they held their cylinder timing better, and because oif their smooth actions. Occasionally, some agent would be shown with a 3.5-inch M27.

As a high schooler, my class visited the Dallas field office about 1960. The .38's were the main item in the gun room. One agent mentioned that he owned a S&W Bodyguard for overcoat pocket use in winter. They had one five-inch M27 with a very smooth action. It certainly impressed this lad, whose only handgun was an old Webley Mk. VI! The agent guiding the tour was impressed by my gun knowledge and let me handle several weapons.

I bet they don't have such tours today, and if they do, the kids don't get to dry-fire the guns!

Lone Star
 
Many Thanks

I appreciate all of the fantastic feedback from everyone! I went shooting on Sat. with a buddy up near Snoqualmie Pass and put a bunch of scary Powermax .357 defense loads through my 2.5" S+w model 60. I found myself wondering if grandpa's accuracy was as bad as mine, (probably not, since he lived a long life and died of natural causes, not some bootlegger's bullet). Anyway, just wanted to give everyone a solid "Thank you" for the great info.
-A
 
Standard issue was Colt or Smith .38 six shooters with five inch or four inch barrels.
Of course, you could purchase your own and get an N frame magnum.
Let me recommend Will by G. Gordon Liddy where he talks about his own FBI training and the weapons he carried as a field agent.
 
A relative (last non-college grad SA) carried a S&W registered .357, nickel, with custom grips. Pre-war (WWII) to the end of his career. It has the best trigger of any revolver I've ever seen, still. Too bad I don't own it. I don't know what was issued, etc.
 
The gentlemen I knew from that era had Colt OPs. One had a privately purchased but approved S&W. It was a M&P which he prefered to his issue OP.
 
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