Falling bullets

[joeranger]

I don't think I have ever fired a gun without knowing specifically where the bullet was going. So, the idea of people firing guns in the air to celebrate seems even more stupid than someone throwing things off tall buildings.
I am bothered by the misconceptions that non-gun people have about certain things. "The suspect had an AUTOmatic weapon..."

In some cities, firing guns in the air on New Years is a tradition the cops are trying to end. I support them. I am not as worried about the falling bullets as I am about the stupid people with guns. However, the news reported a kid being killed in church by a bullet that went through the roof.

I think it is a common misconception that bullets come down as fast as they go up.

Once it reaches its apogee, the bullet will fall. Air resistance limits its speed, but bullets are designed to be fairly aerodynamic, so the speed is still quite lethal if the bullet happens to hit someone.

How lethal is a falling bullet? 9mm is basically a ball so unlike a rifle bullet it would not tumble as much. Acceleration of gravity 32ft/sec2 and mass vs wind resistance.

 

[mehavey]

Mythbusters did a demo where bullets fired straight up came down with non-lethal velocities.

On the other hand, a "falling bullet" fired less-than-straight-up killed an Amish girl a mile
and a half away in Ohio just the other day in a well-publicized incident.

When sure of your backstop, you are in charge.
When unsure, you roll the dice and God is in charge.

 

[Brian Pfleuger]

This has been hashed and rehashed....

There are two different possibilities....

1) If a bullet is fired very, very close to vertical, it will come to a near complete stop before falling back to earth and will not be nearly as dangerous as a bullet would normally be.

2)If the bullet is not fired very near to vertical, it's gyroscopic stability will keep it pointed forward and cause it to follow a much more normal "ballistic" trajectory. This bullet is very dangerous and there are MANY well documented cases of fatal and near fatal accidents from such bullets.

 

[Skans]

I never could see the point of firing guns in the air???? If someone just likes loud noise, that's what firecrackers are for.

 

[603Country]

If I could just talk those darn squirrels into coming down to the ground, I'd never have to shoot upward - unless dove hunting counts.

 

[FrankenMauser]

There are two different possibilities....

There is a third, as well. It is something Dr. David G Mohler (Stanford University) has talked about, and something Hatcher (I believe) discusses in his 'notebook':

3. Some projectiles, when fired vertically, can maintain their rotational stability. This causes them to remain in a vertical orientation on the earth-return leg of their journey, and they can attain much higher velocity (since they aren't tumbling).

Plain language: They keep spinning, and come back to earth base-first. They get more speed, and penetrate a lot farther than tumbling bullets.

How lethal is a falling bullet?

Julian Hatcher's testing concluded that traditional .30 caliber projectiles have a terminal velocity of about 300 ft/sec. (Hatcher's Notebook) Since it only takes 200 ft/sec to penetrate the skull, that's more than capable of being lethal (and that's an unstable, tumbling bullet).(Head, Face, and Neck Trauma: Comprehensive Management; Michael G. Stewart, 2005.) If you happen to run into the third scenario I mentioned above, terminal velocity can be significantly higher.

 

[Salmoneye]

A study by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) found that 80% of celebratory gunfire-related injuries are to the head, feet, and shoulders.[6] In the U.S. Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, about two people die and about 25 more are injured each year from celebratory gunfire on New Year's Eve, the CDC says.[3] Between the years 1985 and 1992, doctors at the King/Drew Medical Center in Los Angeles, California, treated some 118 people for random falling-bullet injuries. Thirty-eight of them died.[7] Kuwaitis celebrating in 1991 at the end of the Gulf War by firing weapons into the air caused 20 deaths from falling bullets.[7]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celebratory_gunfire

 

[Brian Pfleuger]

3. Some projectiles, when fired vertically, can maintain their rotational stability. This causes them to remain in a vertical orientation on the earth-return leg of their journey, and they can attain much higher velocity (since they aren't tumbling).

True, but I would include that in the 1st possibilty. It is entirely possible, I saw a small project that looked to prove that very theory many years ago (when I was in high school). They showed that it was possible and that the bullet would probably hurt but was not likely to do any real damage.

They had a couple of examples where such bullets hit 2x4s and left a small dent. Certainly enough that it would hurt like heck but not enough to penetrate your skull. I wouldn't want to be looking up and get hit in the eye though...

 

[drail]

Never underestimate the power of large numbers of really stupid people.

 

[JohnKSa]

Certainly enough that it would hurt like heck but not enough to penetrate your skull.

Depends on the bullet. A 150gr .30 cal rifle bullet at 300-400fps (what Hatcher tested) definitely has enough oomph to penetrate the skull with a fairly square hit from the top. There are documented cases of accidental deaths from headshots from low-powered airguns that don't provide nearly that energy and employ much lighter projectiles.

Hatcher's assessment that it wouldn't be fatal was, in my opinion, based on protective gear issued to soldiers at the time (i.e. steel helmets), not based on the bullets hitting unprotected skulls.

However, even so, Hatcher characterized the falling bullets as having the potential to "produce a serious wound".

It's also worth remembering that a heavier bullet of the same caliber that remained stabilized and fell base first would have a higher terminal velocity which would contribute to more wounding potential/penetration.

Mythbusters did a demo where bullets fired straight up came down with non-lethal velocities.

Mythbusters never recovered any rifle bullets from their testing. The pistol bullets they recovered tumbled which reduced the terminal velocity considerably.

Hatcher's testing proved that at least some rifle bullets don't tumble but remain stabilized and fall base first--that makes for a much higher terminal velocity and definitely creates the potential for lethality.

Even tumbling, there's potential for fairly serious injuries.

A tumbling bullet falling straight down penetrates 2" based on X-Rays:
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=444987&postcount=17

 

[Slopemeno]

I've brought this up before, but I read a report from the UK where people have committed suicide with sub 12 ft/lb air rifles. How many ft/lbs of energy does a 300-400 fps 150 grain bullet have? I wonder how many inches of gelatin it will penetrate? Box of Truth should check this out.

Bottom line- there's no doubt that shots fired in the air have injured and killed people. It's a bad idea. Don't do it.

 

[JohnKSa]

30-50 foot lbs of energy.

 

[Uncle Buck]

I remember this being hashed out before. I have recovered bullets from the roofs of some of my rental units in which they, the roofs, were damaged. (I have owned 25 trailers and I can distinctly remember three of them having holes {small puntures} in which I pulled bullets from.)

They appeared to be .22 caliber bullets and some larger. The only way I knew the roofs had been hit was they had been leaking.

A lot of people insisted that a falling .22 cal bullet would not have enough "oomph" to push through a metal roof. Maybe my roofs are just weaker metal. I wish I had kept the dang things and taken pictures of the damage.

I have been around guns and reloading long enough to know what a bullet looks like and I know what I pulled out of the roofs.

Always know your backstop! Know where the bullet is going to end up.

I even have a problem hunting squirrels with .22 LR. If you miss the squirrel and tree, where is the bullet going? I would venture to guess the majority of them end up harmlessly falling to the ground, never to be seen again.