Fairbairn–Sykes
- Thread starter Eod1
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Model12Win
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Pretty old school these days, but many of the fundamentals are still the same.
I never thought that the F-S knife was a good idea because in actual use the tip often bent or broke ! Applegate version was in improvement. Many other knives are better choices.
The handgun techniques are sometimes strange also !!
Of great interest to me are the comments about the harsh world they were asked to deal with and compare that with today's drug controlled cities and terrorism.
The handgun techniques are sometimes strange also !!
Of great interest to me are the comments about the harsh world they were asked to deal with and compare that with today's drug controlled cities and terrorism.
I'm still looking for a instructor in point shooting . Does anyone have any ideas? I'm going to talk to some of my grandfather's friends this weekend. When I take them some moonshine they open up to me about things in their past a little. I'm having dinner Friday night with some people that use to work with my father. They are big in the gun world, Old school stuff, Tommy guns etc. I will see if they know anyone who still teaches.
Back in Col Cooper's work a test was made and actual shootouts were made which showed that when the shooter used the sights his hit probability DOUBLED !! Without using the sights it was just a little faster , hardly worth the loss of accuracy !! Use your eyes that's what they are there for !
g.willikers
New member
The biggest obstacle to learning point shooting is acquiring the confidence that it can work.
While using sights is always best, they may not always be available.
Too dark to see them, things happening too fast to find them, many other things that can interfere with using them.
It can't hurt a bit to know how to point shoot when and if you need it.
You can easily get the point of shooting fast and accurately without sights at surprisingly long distances, too.
Archers have been doing it for eons.
While using sights is always best, they may not always be available.
Too dark to see them, things happening too fast to find them, many other things that can interfere with using them.
It can't hurt a bit to know how to point shoot when and if you need it.
You can easily get the point of shooting fast and accurately without sights at surprisingly long distances, too.
Archers have been doing it for eons.
Eod1 , The info on the development of the F-S system might still be out there somewhere as it was written. But I don't have the copy. That's a long time ago !!
There was an fascinating article in AFAIK hypefreeblades.com not too long ago written by a member of the family that made them in WWII. They were quenched in whale oil ! They were made from a bayonet originally.
You might be able to find that .
As far as Cooper type studies That you might be able to find too.
I'll check some books I have but some of my info came from magazine articles which I don't have.
You might just do a search , perhaps google chrome for F-S
look for a copy of ''Fairbairn-Sykes fighting knife ......." by Ron Flook
There was an fascinating article in AFAIK hypefreeblades.com not too long ago written by a member of the family that made them in WWII. They were quenched in whale oil ! They were made from a bayonet originally.
You might be able to find that .
As far as Cooper type studies That you might be able to find too.
I'll check some books I have but some of my info came from magazine articles which I don't have.
You might just do a search , perhaps google chrome for F-S
look for a copy of ''Fairbairn-Sykes fighting knife ......." by Ron Flook
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Tom Givens
New member
See the current edition of our newsletter for info on Fairbairn's work.
http://rangemaster.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/2017-07_RFTS-Newsletter.pdf
http://rangemaster.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/2017-07_RFTS-Newsletter.pdf
Thanks Tom ,I knew there was someone out there who remembered more than I !
I had read much of the history and methods and got the best in my local area.
Then the 1980s Nyack NY Weather underground incident was a big wake up call for many. I took John Farnam's course and learned how much I didn't know.
I'd like to here thank you and the other fine teachers who got us on the track of the real world !
I had read much of the history and methods and got the best in my local area.
Then the 1980s Nyack NY Weather underground incident was a big wake up call for many. I took John Farnam's course and learned how much I didn't know.
I'd like to here thank you and the other fine teachers who got us on the track of the real world !
Ok so I just read Givens latest news letter where point shooting verses sighted fire was the lead article . Based in his numbers the following facts are evidenced,
Recently Tom Givens of Rangemaster in Tenn threw up a reprint of an article wrote years ago. It in he makes that claim, but taking his own writings on the numbers [ which are incorrect based on the men who actually recorded the results in Shanghai ], but taking Givens numbers, here's what they actually represent.
The Shanghai police killed 159 suspects and wounded another 149 while suffering nineteen officers killed with sixty-seven wounded during the same time frame. Givens idiotically claims that the fact that 1.6 rounds per casualty more were fired by the police proves the ineffectiveness of point shooting. The police killed nine times as many foes as the bad guys did, yet their methods were less effective?
The bad guys only managed to kill one cop out of every 4.5 they shot, while the cops killed one bad guy out of every 1.9 bad guys they shot, with an added expenditure of only 1.6 rounds per encounter. Out of 394 total encounters described, the cops killed 149 bad guys. The bad guys killed a mere 19 cops. Givens argument of efficacy makes no sense whatsoever.
Recently Tom Givens of Rangemaster in Tenn threw up a reprint of an article wrote years ago. It in he makes that claim, but taking his own writings on the numbers [ which are incorrect based on the men who actually recorded the results in Shanghai ], but taking Givens numbers, here's what they actually represent.
The Shanghai police killed 159 suspects and wounded another 149 while suffering nineteen officers killed with sixty-seven wounded during the same time frame. Givens idiotically claims that the fact that 1.6 rounds per casualty more were fired by the police proves the ineffectiveness of point shooting. The police killed nine times as many foes as the bad guys did, yet their methods were less effective?
The bad guys only managed to kill one cop out of every 4.5 they shot, while the cops killed one bad guy out of every 1.9 bad guys they shot, with an added expenditure of only 1.6 rounds per encounter. Out of 394 total encounters described, the cops killed 149 bad guys. The bad guys killed a mere 19 cops. Givens argument of efficacy makes no sense whatsoever.
.38SPL enthusiast
New member
Part of the training Fairbairn described in Shooting to Live consisted of isosceles stance, roughly sighted shooting. The variations on point shooting he taught were intended for use when the opponent was within a few yards. His point shooting technique was kinesthetic, meaning that it depended on a felt awareness of the gun being held in the same position relative to the body. Past 30', he advocated some use of sights. His personal 1911 was described as having a gold bead front sight.
To me, the figures suggest he knew what he was doing. Most confrontations his officers encountered were ambushes. Everyday in Shanghai then was a war between gangs and gangs against the police.
To me, the figures suggest he knew what he was doing. Most confrontations his officers encountered were ambushes. Everyday in Shanghai then was a war between gangs and gangs against the police.
In doing some more research, I located this guy through another man, who directed to Bob Harvey who runs the south florida gun school. Mr. Harvey was apparently trained by Rex Applegate, who was trained by William Fairbairn during ww2. His website is here http://www.sflagunschool.com/index.html. He doesn't list his point shooting course on the website, but I learned from the same gentleman that turned me onto him that he does indeed offer that training and was certified by Rex Applegate in instructing Applegates method/s.
His backgrounds seems very impressive, starting with the fact he was a Vietnam Marine, later a PMI for the US Marine Corps, former Marine embassy guard, former US Marine firearms instructor, along with a boat load of NRA certifications. He's been in the business about 30 years and seems to have some excellent credentials.
Anyone know anything about Mr. Harvey or the South Florida gun school? Taken any of his courses, etc?
Thanks in advance, I plan on speaking to him sometime next week, just thought I'd get some feedback here if there's any to be offered in the form of first hand experience.
His backgrounds seems very impressive, starting with the fact he was a Vietnam Marine, later a PMI for the US Marine Corps, former Marine embassy guard, former US Marine firearms instructor, along with a boat load of NRA certifications. He's been in the business about 30 years and seems to have some excellent credentials.
Anyone know anything about Mr. Harvey or the South Florida gun school? Taken any of his courses, etc?
Thanks in advance, I plan on speaking to him sometime next week, just thought I'd get some feedback here if there's any to be offered in the form of first hand experience.
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