factory OAL from Ogive.

Shadow9mm

New member
Hey guys, Trying to get a little more precise measuring for my OAL and got the Hornady bullet comparator. I measured the factory ammo at the ogive, and came up with this to try and get a baseline of industry standard. I am trying to build up some standard range loads. I did order the Hornady OAL gauge so I can measure my rifle, but I was looking more for a basic factory load that will work well in several guns. with the PMC shooting very well out of my rifle I was planning on using the 1.860 OAL on the ogive for my loads as it should be withing factory specs as long as I don't exceed max oal to fit in my mags. thoughts?

223
Federal Fusion MRS 62g sp------------------1.847
PMC Bronze 55g FMJBT----------------------1.860
Hornady Superformance Match 75g OTM---1.840
Federal American 55g FMJ------------------1.8375
average------------------------------------- 1.846


5.56
Federal American Eagle 62g green tip 1.852
 
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You need the Hornady OAL gauge to go along with the Comparator.

You find your max for whatever bullet you plan to use since every bullet has a different ogive measurement.
 
yes, that will give me a precise measurement for MY rifle, but chambers for .223 should all be within a certain spec. my thoughts were that if factory ammo should work in all rifles (some being more accurate than others) if I used them as a baseline i should have rounds that will run in all guns as well.
 
But if I am measuring off the ogive for the factory loads and measuring off the ogive for my loads isnt that the more critical measurement rather than the total OAL as that only affects what will fit in the magazine?
 
Shadow9mm,

You're seeking a correct value that doesn't exist in commercially loaded ammo. For example, I bought some HSM 223 Remington ammo loaded with 80 grain Sierra MatchKings. The SAAMI maximum COL for 223 Remington is 2.260" to ensure fit in a magazine, but the 80 grain SMK is designed for cartridges that are to be singly-loaded, so Sierra recommends it be seated out to 2.550", which means it can't fit some magazines loaded to the COL Sierra intended for it. The reason it may be seated out that far is the 80 grain SMK has an ogive radius of ≈2.5", while the 69 grain SMK, which is designed for magazine fit and feed, has an ogive radius of ≈1.5", so the distance from the shoulder at the forward end of the bearing surface to the tip of the ogive is shorter on the 69 grain SMK than on the 80 grain SMK. So HSM's solution was to give up some powder space and just seat the 80 grain bullet to 2.260" and let a little bit of the ogive disappear into the case neck. But if you measured this round with your comparator, it would have very long jump, all the way from the case neck to the throat.

Every bullet design will be a little different. Some bullets will have a long jump due to being too short to seat adequately when trying to jump a standard distance, so they won't yield useful information, either.

To give you a starting point, I suggest most makers probably use an in-house rule that looks something like using 0.050" of jump in a SAAMI minimum standard chamber, or a seating depth that lets the neck grasp at least 2/3 of a caliber of the bullet, or seating to SAAMI maximum COL, whichever of the three gives the shortest overall length. I would also not be at all surprised if such a rule varied from one maker to another, depending on how their ballistic techs felt about it.
 
yes, there was more variance than I expected on those 4 factory loads, when I get my OAL gauge I ordered, I will measure my actual seating depth for my gun I will add that to the original post just as a comparison to where the factory loads are and I will try and add some more factory loads too. Just though it would be a good point of comparison.
 
If you have 1 load for many guns it will work better in some than others. Example! Read any new rifle review in "The American Rifleman" or other publication. They will test the rifle with several brands or ammo with varying results. Better to figure out the load that is best for each rifle. As for bullet selection, they vary even within brand and bullet. Example! 168g SMK, O-Give to bullet nose will vary 0.004". Their factory seconds, only available at their factory store, will vary 0.020". You can‘t measure O-give to nose. It must be calculated. I have done the measurement and calcs. Consistent O-give to case base can be achieved with the right equipment. Your C.O.L. will vary. So you have to choose. Do you want to be 0.010" off the lands and single shot or do you want to feed out of your mags. If you want to feed from the mag you may find your loads substantially short of the lands.
 
It can be more than that. Below, I used the bullet base as a reference measuring a box of 150 grain SMK's. Note that the extreme spread of the base to nose is just over 1.5 times greater than from base to the ogive contact location. The difference in these two measurements is the ogive contact point to nose dimension as referenced to your bullet comparator insert. Note that I used two different inserts. One is the aluminum insert sold with the Hornady comparator. The other, which finds the ogive lower down, is the stainless insert sold by Sinclair International.

The Sinclair insert is closer to an actual chamber throat dimension and is the better tool for that reason, IMHO. It fits either the Hornady or Sinclair caliper adapters, so you can buy it separately for whichever adapter you have. The difference in the caliper adapters is the Hornady is offset from the caliper jaw and anvil centerline for use with the Hornady Overall Length Gauge, while the Sinclair adapter is centered in a standard 6" caliper. But the inserts fit both and are interchangeable. An ideal bullet comparator insert is made using the same reamer that chambered your rifle. That will give you your actual ogival contact location. I have one for 223 I made this way.

150%20gr%20SMK%202015-04-16b_zpssosy8kqw.gif


You can see from the above mean values that the ogive contact location to bullet tip averages 0.5855" using the Hornady insert and 0.7295" using the Sinclair insert.

If you try to keep a tiny jump to the lands exact, you have two more problems. One is that, as Hatcher points out, chambering a round can size the case some, moving the bullet forward. IIRC he said he measured rapid fire pace bolt operation of a 1917 Enfield size a 30-06 down 0.006". So, gentle bolt work on a short bullet jump is important.

Another issue is that the commercial comparators measure a cartridge from the head to a contact location on the ogive rather than from the headspace seating surface to that contact point. In other words, not from the shoulder or the front edge of a rim or belt, which is what actually determines how far the bullet is inserted into the chamber when the firing pin shoves the cartridge forward.

If you want to know how far the ogive will be from the throat exactly, then that headspace seating surface to ogive throat contact location is the distance you want to know. I've seen cases from the same lot of Lake City 30-06 ammunition that was fired in different field grade Garand chambers come out of the same sizing die in the same setup on the same press with as much as 0.005" difference in length from head to shoulder, and the long ones having to be resized a second time. When all the cases are from the same chamber, but the case brand isn't very uniform, I've see up to about 0.002" difference even in the smaller 223 Rem case. Uniform cases with the same reloading and annealing history are more consistent.

For the above reason, I made myself a gauge that measures from the shoulder of a rimless bottleneck cartridge to the bullet ogive using my own chamber reamer to cut the shoulder and the bullet probe profiles. This was many years ago. Today you can buy the Redding Instant Indicator to make the same measurement using a sizing bushing (available in 0.001" increments) to contact the bullet ogive, plus make some other measurements. Checking loaded rounds with it, since my Redding Competition Seating Dies don't contact the bullet at the same point as the comparator and bullets in one box often aren't all off the same tooling, so the ogive profiles aren't an exact match, I still get about 0.002" of variation from round to round. This can be segregated by measurement and the micrometer seater adjusted to make them match, but I've never measured that mattering.

OgivetoNeckComparator_zps8707d8fb.jpg


I also know that bullets don't necessarily shoot best close to the lands as many seem to think they do. Berger found the same thing for their VLD bullets. The Late Dan Hackett, a benchrest shooter, had a 220 Swift that would not average better than ½ inch when seated 0.020" off the lands, but setting his Nosler BT's all the way back to 0.050" off the lands cut that group size by more than half. Every gun has its own preferences, and you just have to find it.
 
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