Fact or myth?

D

dyl

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Recoil vs. POI: Is this a fact or a myth?

I've heard this:
The bullet leaves the muzzle before recoil even starts so it doesn't matter how tightly you hold the firearm for first shot accuracy. Placement is not affected.

If this is true, could I choose to lighten my hold knowing that I'll take more of a punch to the shoulder for the sake of accuracy?
 
Myth.
Recoil begins as soon as the bullet starts to move.

However, you might find better accuracy with a light hold because you are not muscling the gun differently from shot to shot.
A serious benchrest shooter will fire his 10.49 lb 6mm PPC "free recoil," touching nothing but the trigger because no hold is the most uniform hold.

On the other hand, maybe a hard hold will be more stable. Many smallbore shooters can be more accurate with a good .22 target rifle from prone with tight sling than from a bench.

On the gripping hand, if you speak of a punch to the shoulder and are really shooting a gun with appreciable recoil, a hard hold will not only be more comfortable, it will be steadier.

So SHOOT THE GUN and find out.
 
If this is true, could I choose to lighten my hold knowing that I'll take more of a punch to the shoulder for the sake of accuracy?
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Bad idea based on a false premise. Keep a firm grip and the stock tight to your shoulder no matter what you shoot, 22 to .416 Rigby, all benefit from a solid platform and consistent hold. Let your whole body take the shock not just your shoulder.
 
Letting the gun recoil slightly can improve accuracy. Not a good idea with a 416Rigby from a bench though.

Not only does recoil effect accuracy, it even effects muzzle velocity. A free-recoiling gun will have lower velocity than one clamped in a vice.
 
hm

Thank you, it sounded too good to be true but I do hear that idea every couple months or so - usually in the handgun section of the forums.

Maybe I need to shoot from positions I'd likely use while hunting although for sight-in purposes the group size would suffer.

Anyhow, interesting idea. What's left of my physics was nagging me: how can an object being pushed down a barrel be faster than the opposite force transmitted directly through metal molecules that are actually bonded to each other?
 
If we are talking about a handgun with a 3" to 6" barrel, shooting out to 30 yards, it may very well be true that the bullet leaves the barrel before the recoil has any affect on accuracy. Keep in mind that shooting 10 MOA with a handgun is doing pretty good (2.5" group at 25 yards)... So if there is a recoil effect of 0.5 MOA, it will be unnoticeable with a pistol.

With a rifle, the barrel is much longer, and the bullet remains in the barrel for a longer period of time.

a 9mm 4 inch barrel pistol has a "bullet in the barrel" time of 0.5 milliseconds. A 308 with a 24 inch barrel has a "bullet in the barrel" time of 1.4 milliseconds. So with a rifle, there is more time available for the physics of recoil to screw around with accuracy, and with a rifle we are much more likely to notice small changes in accuracy.
 
it may very well be true that the bullet leaves the barrel before the recoil has any affect on accuracy
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No.

It is easiest to tell with an old revolver having a round barrel.
Lay a straightedge across the sights and you will see that the line of sight is well above the bore line and at an upward angle. This is because the handgun will recoil to bring the bullet exit up to the line of sight in that .5 ms.
 
Revolvers: not to get off topic but the muzzle rise idea is what prompted me to wonder if the same myth was supposedly true in rifles. I have a S&W manual along with my snub-nose that says the sights are manufactured to be on with 158 grain bullets and lighter projectiles may hit lower (exit sooner). That idea of muzzle rise affecting trajectory is not new to the revolver crowd but I did hear the myth every now and then.

btmj - good point about practical accuracy. I'm probably not good enough with my handguns off-hand to know if little differences are my sight picture, trigger pull, hold, or my choice of reload.
 
As long as you do it exactly the same way for each shot it matters little. I don't think a "death grip" on a gun is conducive to good accuracy, but wouldn't hold on too loosely. Being comfortable when shooting is the key to accurcy. Guys who are scrared to death of recoil and are constantly fighting the gun don't shoot well.
 
False, but based on a grain of truth. The vast majority of recoil happens after the bullet leaves the bore.

All that hot gas leaving is functionally the same thing as a jet engine for a brief period of time. Muzzle brakes work by using some of this leftover energy to harness gas like the sail on a boat to pull the rifle forward to negate some of the rearward recoil.

Before that, the bullet is the only thing providing resistance for the rifle to push against so to speak. 1/16 of an inch is the largest distance I've ever heard of a rifle recoiling due to internal ballistics.

Jimro
 
Death grip bad, loose relaxed grip is bad, this is why we say firm grip. Think of a firm handshake, enough to know you mean business but not bone crushing hard, the same every time makes for consistency with any gun. It's just as important for mouse guns as it is shoulder cannons. You can't stop a gun from recoiling but you can make it work for you.
 
Back in the 20's the American Rifleman magazine had plots of vibration versus time in service rifles and pistols.

All pistols and revolvers vibrate, and vibrate a lot, before the bullet exits the muzzle.

It was interesting to see pictures of M1911's where the barrel was beginning to unlock before the bullet had left. You could clearly see barrel extension out the front.
 
For my heavy benchrest rifle...I prefer to use a light hold. For the majority of my of my sporter rifles, I prefer to use a firm hold --- for accuracy's sake --- especially with my support hand on the forearm --- that helps pull the gun into my shoulder pocket. For my stronghand...I prefer to use Carlos Hathcock's method --- which is a slight rearward pull on the rifle stock --- while trying to use my trigger finger as it's own entity.

On windy days...you will have to control the rifle or pistol, with a firmer hold.

You can jam a semi auto pistol, buy using a limp wrist. For pistols...I use 100% grip pressure on both hands --- the same kind of grip pressure that I use for holding a mall hammer. A firm hold, allows for quicker follow-up shots, due to recoil control.
 
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QuickLoad will tell you that a 24" 7½-lb 30-06 with a 3,000fps 150gr bullet going out the end of the barrel will be
moving ~11fps the other direction at the time the bullet leaves the muzzle,... and have already moved 0.08" at that point.

Doesn't sound like much, does it ?

But consider that (say) 20% of that puny 0.08" rearward travel has turned into barrel rise/rotation. Simple angular
calculation will tell you the bullet's final impact at 100 yds might be ~1½ inches above where the barrel was
pointed when the primer went off.

As long as you keep your grip/that muzzle rise consistent, you're OK.
Lose that consistency and....
 
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This from a guy who has shot a 300 Win mag target rifle enough to get pretty good at it: recoil attenuation is a BIG factor in POI. If you don't hold the same each and every time you fire, the group will string vertically. If this doesn't prove that recoil begins while the bullet is still in the bore, I'm confused. Consistency is the key.
 
The reason that the barrels of double barrel guns have bore lines that converge instead of being perfectly parallel to each other is to offset the fact that the top barrel jumps more than the bottom barrel. Aiming the top barrel a little lower compensates for its higher amount of jump.
On SxS doubles, the right barrel jumps up and a little to the right while the left barrel jumps up and a little to the left. The converging bore lines compensate for that.

A double barrel gun can only be perfectly regulated for one bullet weight or shot charge.
 
Most competition benchrest shooters shoot free-recoil...

So much for needing a "firm" or "tight" grip for accuracy, which was your question...

However....for those of us that don't shoot free-recoil, it's all about proper form and trigger control, not just for first-shot accuracy, but to minimize hop and stay on target for follow-up shots (or to spot your own hits).

^^^
.300 WM target rifles are seen pretty frequently on the 1000 yard benches where we shoot...
 
What you need is a consistant grip and free recoil is the easiest thing to do exactly the same with each shot.
 
Most that shoot BR free-recoil are shooting flat bottom rifle stocks and top on front rest will match the width of that stock. Weight of rifle is another factor and my guess 300mag @ 1000yds may be shooting heavy which is unlimited weight. Lot depends on who's putting match on as the the rules.

Hart made an adapter so round bottom stock fit flat bottom front rest works pretty good on doing free-recoil not sure they still make that.
 
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