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Explaining Calibers
- Thread starter Red Dog
- Start date
Not exactly...
The situation between .38 Special - .357 Magnum and .44 Special - .44 Magnum demonstrates the practice of 'developing' a 'new' cartridge from an 'old' cartridge.
The difference between .223 Remington and 5.56x45 NATO is closer to the confusion between .38 Automatic - Super .38 or 9mm Parabellum - 9mm Glisenti. Those two instances featured rounds with identical cases and bullets, loaded to significantly different pressure levels.
Red Dog, I'm sorry to say this, but explaining the difference in calibers is nothing but technicality. But good luck in your attempt.
The situation between .38 Special - .357 Magnum and .44 Special - .44 Magnum demonstrates the practice of 'developing' a 'new' cartridge from an 'old' cartridge.
The difference between .223 Remington and 5.56x45 NATO is closer to the confusion between .38 Automatic - Super .38 or 9mm Parabellum - 9mm Glisenti. Those two instances featured rounds with identical cases and bullets, loaded to significantly different pressure levels.
Red Dog, I'm sorry to say this, but explaining the difference in calibers is nothing but technicality. But good luck in your attempt.
I'm only asking because I'm looking for a simple way to explain it.
No such animal.
Chambering in a specific cartridge; not caliber.
New thread here the other day:
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=507495
and links to this (which is fairly indepth look at your question):
http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/5-56-vs-223/
And there is a physically observable difference between the .357 remington mag and .38 special example, whereas there is not necessarily such a difference between 5.56 and .223.
I just read the barrel and load accordingly regarding .223 remington and 5.56 NATO.
YMMV
Dr Big Bird PhD
New member
Not true, 5.56 uses thicker casing. A .223 barrel cannot fire a 5.56, but a 5.56 can fire a .223Not a good analogy. 223 is just another name for 5.56. They are one and the same. There is a huge difference between 357 and 38.
I personally would fire 5.56 in a .223 chamber any day. This is my belief. I have looked at the facts and sought advice from people I trust. I know why people believe it shouldn't been done but I disagree with those points as I believe they are insignificant and unlikely. As I say I have looked into this & would feel fine doing it, BUT it is up to you to make your own call on that.
I think a lot of the hype is fuelled by the attorneys for the manufacturers getting it put on there so they can say "Oh his gun blew up and you're suing us? What ammo was he using? 5.56 you say? Our manual specifically states not to. Sorry, no case." to cater to the lowest denominator. European ammo is loaded hotter than American ammo (or can be by CIP spec vs. SAAMI spec). Once again I believe this is due to the American sue happy attitude (not saying all Americans are that way but it is only America that is that way) It’s the whole "Well the gun says 8×57 so it should fire any 8×57. XYZ Ammo Co. seeing as he was using your ammo at the time pay him eleventy billion dollars" so American ammo is lightly loaded to compensate for that while in most other countries its “You fired modern ammo in a WWII gun that hasn’t been fired or maintained in 40 years w/o getting it checked first? Case dismissed." After granddads 8mm Mauser has blown up in your face.
SAAMI max pressure for .223 is 55k PSI. CIP max pressure for .223 is 62k PSI. Same as NATO's max for 5.56. Euro ammo is just as common as Yank here and people have been firing it in Yank rifles for long enough with no ill effects from the pressure.
I think a lot of the hype is fuelled by the attorneys for the manufacturers getting it put on there so they can say "Oh his gun blew up and you're suing us? What ammo was he using? 5.56 you say? Our manual specifically states not to. Sorry, no case." to cater to the lowest denominator. European ammo is loaded hotter than American ammo (or can be by CIP spec vs. SAAMI spec). Once again I believe this is due to the American sue happy attitude (not saying all Americans are that way but it is only America that is that way) It’s the whole "Well the gun says 8×57 so it should fire any 8×57. XYZ Ammo Co. seeing as he was using your ammo at the time pay him eleventy billion dollars" so American ammo is lightly loaded to compensate for that while in most other countries its “You fired modern ammo in a WWII gun that hasn’t been fired or maintained in 40 years w/o getting it checked first? Case dismissed." After granddads 8mm Mauser has blown up in your face.
SAAMI max pressure for .223 is 55k PSI. CIP max pressure for .223 is 62k PSI. Same as NATO's max for 5.56. Euro ammo is just as common as Yank here and people have been firing it in Yank rifles for long enough with no ill effects from the pressure.
There's no practical difference between 5.56 and .223. Used to be that some older guns chambered for .223 possibly couldn't handle 5.56 ammo, although I've never seen any proof of this. Unless you are buying an older rifle specifically marked .223, I wouldn't worry about it.
As between 38 special and .357, there's a world of difference. I wouldn't want to see what a cartridge with the same full power of .357 would do to a gun made only for .38 special (if you could somehow cram such a cartridge into a .38)
As between 38 special and .357, there's a world of difference. I wouldn't want to see what a cartridge with the same full power of .357 would do to a gun made only for .38 special (if you could somehow cram such a cartridge into a .38)
I my experience, I would not fire 5.56 out of a .223. Simple test. Drop a 5.56 into a true .223 barrel, flip the barrel upside down. Does it drop? Can you remove it with your finger? Or did you have to "help" it out. Well it's most probably the latter.. 5.56 does stick a little in a .223 barrel and that would worry me if I expected to have perfect performance. Will it work? Sure it will. But just because it can, does not mean you should IMHO. And the previous response of the case of a 5.56 being ever so slightly larger is correct. Check the case specs. Last time I did, there was a difference.
I don't see how you can make the relationship of two cartridges clearer by drawing a comparison to other cartridges; someone who understands .38 Spl/.357 Mag, or .38 Auto/.38 Super, would also understand 5.56/.223.
If you need to get less technical, choose something that laypersons would understand, like gasoline octane, to illustrate how you can use one, but not the other. If your car requires 92 Octane, you can't use 87, but if your car will run on 87, it will run on 92.
If you need to get less technical, choose something that laypersons would understand, like gasoline octane, to illustrate how you can use one, but not the other. If your car requires 92 Octane, you can't use 87, but if your car will run on 87, it will run on 92.
Jim Watson
New member
My perception is that the 5.56 chamber is cut for an automatic weapon shot hot, dirty, and with wartime ammunition that might be at the edge of specification on pressure and bullet profile.
I would not worry about shooting US peacetime 5.56 in a .223 chamber, but would avoid the imports that might not hew as closely to specifications.
I would not worry about shooting US peacetime 5.56 in a .223 chamber, but would avoid the imports that might not hew as closely to specifications.
Edward429451
Moderator
5.56 uses thicker casing.
Only on paper. The scale does not support this (theory).
Mil-Spec and SAAMI spec are two different things. Somethings but not always the cartridges may be fired in the other gun (.223 for 5.56 mm or .308 Winchester for 7.62 x 51 mm Nato). For a civilian gun, what type of chamber is it? Is it minimum SAAMI spec which would be a match chamber? A go gauge may work in it but not a no-go gauge.
Buying surplus ammo may be affordable, but doesn't mean that it will work in your gun. Remember the military doesn't dispose of ammunition just because they're being nice. They're getting rid of stuff they don't want or need. It may be old. It may be poor performing. It may be substandard and hence dumped onto the market. Caveat emptor.
Buying surplus ammo may be affordable, but doesn't mean that it will work in your gun. Remember the military doesn't dispose of ammunition just because they're being nice. They're getting rid of stuff they don't want or need. It may be old. It may be poor performing. It may be substandard and hence dumped onto the market. Caveat emptor.