Experimenting with a 45 load.

[5whiskey]

So I never deviate from published loads, excluding HS6 data for cast bullets in 357. Even then, I am still well under max chamber pressure and charge weight listed for jacketed loads but needed to increase the charge weight and use magnum primers to burn all the powder is the reduced lead loads... Anyway I digress.

I want just a little bit more from 45acp. I don't want to push the envelope too hard, but i would like to push a 230 gn projectile to about 950-1000fps. The pistol is a RIA 1911, 5" barrel. Because the case head is unsupported, I plan to get starline 45 super brass. I'm trying to use HS6 if I can (I have pounds of it) and it seems to be an adequate powder to achieve. I've found 45+p data on the net using HS6 that pretty much gets me where I want to be. I'll be using cast so I should get a small velocity bonus over jacketed projectiles.

I plan to get a square base firing pin retainer and a 2 lb heavier recoil spring to slow the slide some. Anyone have any thoughts?

 

[Dufus]

Anyone have any thoughts?

My thoughts are that I would never drive any of my 1911s that hard. They were not designed to shoot a 230 gr bullet at those velocities.

My thoughts aside, if you are gonna drive it that hard, then HS6 is the powder for the job as it works best at the upper end. That is why you have unburned powder in your 357 loads.

Back to the 45: I don't get those velocities with my 200 gr cast SWC because I don't push it that hard.

I know that lots of folks are into the +P hype, but I have never gone there. Don't have the need to do it.

My powder of choice for my semi-autos (9 thru 45) is VVN340. I have never had a cleaner burning powder and virtually flash free than this.

 

[Nick_C_S]

I don't want to push the envelope too hard, but i would like to push a 230 gn projectile to about 950-1000fps.

Uhh, that's pushing the envelope pretty hard.

I do load the Hornady 230gn XTP with HS-6; and I load it good and hot. I'm getting just over 900 f/s through my full size 1911's. I use the book max (Hornady 9th) to achieve this. I won't load it any hotter as it's a good stout round as it is.

If I put that charge under a lead bullet, I'd be concerned about leading. 45 ACP is generally lead-friendly; but that may be a bit too much.

 

[5whiskey]

Oh I don't have unburned powder in my 357 loads anymore. Fixed that. At any rate...

I shoot cast with middle of the road 357 loads with virtually no leading, and that's running at a much greater pressure than we would be talking about here.

OK maybe I am pushing the envelope a little, but im not trying to approach even low 45 super loads. At any rate, this won't be a regular diet for the pistol. I usually shoot loads that would be considered just milder than WWB.

 

[849ACSO]

I have pushed 200gr XTP bullets into the 1000fps range.....with added weight on the slide and a 22lb recoil spring, but a 230? I think you're asking too much of the round, and the gun.

 

[Clark]

The case web is about 0.18" thick on a 45acp case.
The feed ramp intrusion in a Para Ord P10 is challenging for hot loads at 0.235".
I have repeatedly got 45 Super performance, but not with 45 Super brass [case bulge during load work up], that would not work. I had to use Starline +P brass with thicker walls over the feed ramp.
In this pic, note the thicker walls on the Starline 45acp +P case on the left.
Note the thin walls on the Starline 45 Super case on the right.
My measurements and pics may be in conflict with what Joe posted on Real Guns ~~ 2002 about his cross section of the brass, so your cross section may vary.
The man on the phone at Starline in 2000 told me that the Super brass is tempered to be stronger. My experience is that thick metal wins.

 

[T. O'Heir]

"...should get a small velocity bonus over jacketed..." What you'll get is a coat of lead in your barrel. Driving cast bullets too fast, like at jacketed velocities, is how that happens.
Max loads of Alliant Power Pistol go 939 to 985 with a Speer 230 gr CPRN. Max loads of BE-86 go 927. Both with 5" barrels.
HS6 doesn't get to 900.

 

[5whiskey]

With all due respect Mr O'Hair, there are a blue million 357 shooters who launch 158gn cast near 1200 fps with no "coat of lead" in the barrel. Honestly it if weren't for bullet lube, I could fire 3xs the number of cast rounds as jacketed before metal fouling becomes an issue.

In addition to that, I am a firm believer that pressure has way more to do with lead fouling than velocity. Certainly lead is only good up to a certain velocity. That's why any rifle round using a cast bullet must be significantly downloaded. There are a good number of bullet casters who launch their fare out of rifles nearing 2000fps with gas checks. 1600 or so without. The very act of using a gas check also implies that velocity has little to do with leading, up to a point. Its the pressure that the gas check guards against. Even if that weren't the case (and it is), I am not approaching either the pressure or velocity in this load that should cause concern of leading.

At any rate, I digress. I'm not trying to start an argument and I am certainly open to constructive criticism. I cede that there may be setbacks with what I'm trying to do, but leading is the least of my concerns. I may be trying to push the pistol harder than I need to. I believe a 1911 can take stout +p rounds if you conduct businesses properly, but I'm open to feedback. Clark, I appreciate your input on your experience with star line brass.

 

[TimSr]

With all due respect Mr O'Hair, there are a blue million 357 shooters who launch 158gn cast near 1200 fps with no "coat of lead" in the barrel.

I'm one of them, but closer to 1400 fps.

 

[rclark]

Yep, match up bullet hardness to pressure and no coat of lead in the barrel.... Well, as long as the barrel doesn't have a constriction, throats are the right diameter, and throat to barrel alignment is good (there are variables!) also . All I shoot is lead in my guns. No need for jacketed here. In .44Mag I've shot up 1333fps with no leading for example. Most of my shooting is in the 850-1100fps range.

Digressing a bit, sorry about that...

I shoot .45 ACP in my convertible Rugers, so have more leeway on pressure constraints.

 

[judgecrater]

I really would not go to that power with an autoloader in 45ACP. As mentioned get a Ruger revolver or move up to a 10mm pistol.

 

[noylj]

Leading has a couple of causes
1 leading at the start of the rifling is due to alloy that is too hard or bullets too small
2 leading that runs along the leading edge of the groove is generally due to alloy too soft or velocity too high
3 leading just in the last half or less of the barrel means you ran out of lube or you have lube failure
You can't safely run a .45 Auto fast enough to need a hard alloy. I have run 11-13 BHN in my .44 Mags for decades.
If you want to push the envelope, get a different cartridge.
Stay within the loads in your manuals that produce no pressure indications.

 

[wingman]

My question is why, I load for accuracy normally about 20- 25% below max gives me that, why destroy the pistol for more speed, need more power buy a bigger gun.