Expected accuracy

S

STW

New member
I read about all these sub MOA rifle guarantees and the like but that raises questions about an older rifle. I have a 1953 manufacture model 70 in .270 winchester. I suspect that there are fewer than 200 rounds through this rifle, almost none in the last 20 years. The only thing that seems to be missing is a leather keeper on the original sling. What is a reasonable level of accuracy to expect from this rifle?
 
While there are many firearms that have suffered ill effects from the cheaper modern production methods, the average hunting rifle is not one of them. Yes, they might not be as pretty as the old classic production rifle. However, accuracy under modern production has generally gotten better. Getting a rifle off-the-shelf in 1953 that would shoot 1 MOA with factory ammo was kind of hit or miss. Today, that is an expectation.

With your old classic Winchester, you are probably going to have to do some customization to get that level of accuracy. Bedding the action and floating the barrel are things that almost anyone can do at home. A trigger job requires a little more skill but is not out of reach for the home gunsmith.

On the other hand, you might get lucky and be one of the ones that got a great shooter straight from the factory.
 
If your pre 64 has the barrel tension screw on it, take it out put it in a baggie and label what it is. In my experience, this makes a significant difference in accuracy. You may need to float the barrel as well. There is no reason to think that a pre 64 is not going to shoot well.


A couple of things to remember about pre 64 model 70s:
1. The parts are hand fitted. Cheaper manufacturing is why the pushfeed model 70 was designed (and the Remington 721/722/700). Less skilled labor costs.
2. The barrels were cut rifled rather than hammerforged. There is always a lively discussion about which method of rifling is better.
 
You'll just have to shoot it with ammo it likes to see. I doubt if you will have a 2 MOA rifle. I'd expect a little better than that and it could be a tackdriver. Generally newer guns built with modern CNC machines tend to be a touch more accurate than the older guns. Modern factory ammo also can be more consistent as well But there are plenty of older guns, when combined with good ammo that will shoot great.
 
Sub MOA?

My idea is that the term "sub-MOA" is used for marketing. It's a buzz term.
May very well be true, but I also know I have "sub-MOA" rifles- but they aren't described or advertised that way. They just place those rounds in there without the sales or marketing team getting involved.
 
Many of us do a lot of shooting from benches and modern rifles are easily capable of putting shots into a 1 inch area under those conditions. Take the rifles off the bench and those same 1 inch rifles become three or four inch rifles. It's not the rifle, it's the shooter.

The pre-64 Model 70 was known as The Rifleman's Rifle for a reason. They're generally much better shooters than the rifleman behind them. Give the old rifle a chance and see what it will do. I'll bet that you'll be very pleased with it.

What's a reasonable level of accuracy from that rifle? How well do you shoot?
 
Sure there are rifles out there with a sub MOA guarantee, the problem is most people shooting them aren't sub MOA shooters. I've got a sub MOA rifle the T/C Venture and the best I could do with it for five shots was hovering around 1.5 MOA. This was with plain Remington 150 grain Core-Lockt ammunition. I might have done better with handloads or better factory ammunition, but 1.5 MOA with cheap ammo is enough to make me very happy.

If I had the shot at purchasing a decent Pre 64 M70, I wouldn't worry if it shot sub MOA or not. I'm pretty sure I could get acceptable hunting accuracy out of it with the right factory ammunition or hand load. If I couldn't get it to shoot then I'd have a great action to build a custom rifle on.
 
I don't think there is an answer to your question.
You really can not make anything more than broad assumptions either toward or away from the accuracy potential with nothing to go by.
The rifle may shoot very well, or it may shoot mediocre, or it may disappoint you.
You really cannot tell until you shoot the her.
Hope she puts three in one hole!!!:)
 
I'm sorry as this is way, way off subject, but your name on here is STW. Does that imply that you have. 7mm STW? Just wondering because a buddy of mine has been trying to sell me his rem sendero STW and I'd like to here your thoughts about it if you've got one.
As far as accuracy, if I had a classic rifle like that, I'd be plenty happy with 2 moa. Like others have said, you can always get it better with free floating and bedding.
 
STW happens to be my initials. I've been using them decades longer than any ammunition.

I've now taken the rifle out to play a bit with various hand loads using H4831. Three groups were around 1.3 inches each. Several were a lot wider. I was happy before. I'm happier now, particularly since it was a bit breezy and the 1950's era scope I used came with the rifle.
 
Congratulations!Fine rifle.I would also agree that for a big game hunting rifle,sure,the more accurate the better,but at any range we ought to be shooting at game,even a 2 moa rifle will perform .I can't verify it,but I have heard Carlos Hathcock,the renowned scout/sniper,used a rifle that was not as accurate as yours.
Its yours,and you may do as you please,but that rifle has a collector value that will be compromised by any modification.Glass bedding,etc,while I prefer for technical reasons,I would probably not do to a 1950's M-70.
Enjoy,that is a prize.
 
Many of us do a lot of shooting from benches and modern rifles are easily capable of putting shots into a 1 inch area under those conditions. Take the rifles off the bench and those same 1 inch rifles become three or four inch rifles. It's not the rifle, it's the shooter.
Click to expand...

Damn straight!

With the quality of todays materials and machining equipment it's not rocket surgery to manufacture sub moa barrels at reasonable costs. Training shooters is something else.
 
Many of us do a lot of shooting from benches and modern rifles are easily capable of putting shots into a 1 inch area under those conditions. Take the rifles off the bench and those same 1 inch rifles become three or four inch rifles. It's not the rifle, it's the shooter.
Click to expand...

Damn Straight!, part two!


I do have a few pre 64's. One standard weight barreled 30-06 shoots about 1.25" at 100 yards. That is pretty good. The featherweights, the barrels walk. Expect 2 MOA or less.

I regularly shoot Highpower matches, and I regularly shoot 100 yard reduced matches. I remember after a match which I had shot a HM score with irons, shooting my J. C. Higgins 30-06. This Higgins rifle has a scope and is a very light, shall I say twitchy, rifle. With the bench I have gotten groups close to 1.25 MOA. I think this rifle is capable of 1.5 MOA accuracy with a bench rest.

However even with all the practice I had for the day with my target rifles, I was just able to hold the black sitting with a sling with this rifle. The black is easily 4 MOA.

It was very discouraging, but I learned that hunting rifles are a lot harder to hold steady, even with a sling, than 12 to 17 pound target rifle.
 
I've always used 4064 in my '06 loads with 150-grain, 165s and 180s. After minor forearm tweaking, I've always been able to reliably get a bit under one MOA. 3031 with 110-grain. I also had excellent results with H414 behind a 180-grain Sierra SPBT GameKing.
 
I don't see why that action can't be made to shoot...after all, it was once the issued sniper rifles for the Marines.....incl. the legendary Carlos Hathcock. He sure could use his 30-.06 model 70 pretty effectively in 'Nam.

Much of the accuracy of modern rifles can be attributed to the stock they lie in.
There's a reason long range shooters spend $500-$1000 on a stock. You can take an old military rifle with a tight action and sharp bore, bed the action , install pillars, and free-float the barrel and make a tremendous improvement in accuracy.
 
STW:

I have a 1956 vintage Model 70 in 30/06. I have glass bedded it and is shoots 165 grain Nosler Ballistic tips into 3/4 inch at 100 yards. My rifle shoot best with the forend screw in place. I have shot many thousands of rounds through this rifle and it is still accurate.

Semper Fi.

Gunnery sergeant
Clifford L. Hughes
USMC Retired
 
Check to see whether it's free-floated or not by running a couple of dollar bills down the barrel and forend. There's probably a pressure pad near the end of the forend, but I don't recall that far back.

Anyway, take the barrelled action out of the stock and see where it's contacting the stock. If there's a pressure pad, see if the barrel has made a shiny spot on the side or directly at the bottom.

With the action in the stock, but no screws, see how much play there is by wiggling the barrel side to side. If the fit is sloppy due to the stock drying out, accuracy can be greatly improved by bedding, especially pillar bedding, but I recommend shooting it from sandbags, both front and rear, to see how accurate it is now.

If the rifle will shoot close to 1 MOA with the screws tight, leave it alone! However, if it doesn't and you know the problem isn't the person behind the buttplate, glassbedding can significantly improve accuracy.

JP
 
Speculating rifle accuracy without shooting is iffy at best. The size and shape of the group can often tell you what needs to be addressed, if anything. Get a couple of different types of cheap ammo and give her a run at he range, you might be suprised...
 
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