Expanding Ammo.

manta49

New member
Is there a big difference in performance between expanding ammo and FMJ. in handgun ammo .

I know that the military have to use FMJ but they seem to manage.

Could expanding ammo have problems penetrating trough heavy clothing ect as penetration is the most important feature of any round.
 
First you must determine if expanding ammo actually expands in a given target, and I am not talking about jello testing. If it is anything like hollowpoint ammo, expansion reliability in humans is a little iffy. It happens, and it doesn't happen.
 
There is more than one type of expanding ammunition. The two most common types are Hollow-Point and Jacketed Soft-Point.

Hollow-Point bullets have a hollow cavity in the nose of the the bullet. Upon impacting the target, these bullets rely on the hydralic pressure inside the cavity to force them to expand. Hollow-Points most commonly have a lead core and copper jacket although all-lead HP's, all-copper HP's, and HP's with lead cores and jackets made of other materials like brass or aluminum are not uncommon. Hollow-point bullets typically expand the most aggressively, but also penetrate the least in soft tissue although most modern premium HP ammo is still able to penetrate at least 12 inches which is considered by many to be the minimum depth for self-defense against human aggressors. Hollow-Points are the type of ammunition most often recommended for defense against human aggressors.

Jacketed Soft-Points do not have a hollow cavity. Instead, they have a soft lead core and a harder jacket made of copper, brass, or other such metal. Unlike FMJ ammo, JSP's have the soft lead core exposed at the nose and rely on deformation of that core upon impact with the target for their expansion. JSP's penetrate much deeper than HP's normally do, but they rarely expand nearly as much. JSP's are most commonly recommended for hunting big game (whitetail deer and larger) due to their deeper penetration than HP's or for practice due to their typically lower cost.

From the tone of your post, it sounds as though your main area of concern is defense against human aggressors. This means that you're probably most concerned with the difference in performance between HP's and FMJ's or other non-expanding bullets. The answer to the question is so long as the HP ammo in question still penetrates adequately it is more effective than FMJ although the difference is unquantifiable due to many uncontrolled variables (shot placement, size of the individual, etc.).

Every major U.S. police agency uses HP ammunition and, with an odd exception here or there, every expert in the field of terminal ballistics recommends the use of HP ammo in most cartridges. While the military does retain FMJ ammo for the most part (some specialized units do indeed use HP's), this is not because of effectiveness.

The U.S. military continues to use FMJ ammunition in order to comply with the Hauge Convention of 1899 which forbids the use of ammunition designed to easily expand or fragment in a war between signatory nations. Whether or not the U.S. is bound by said treaty is debatable since we were not a signatory nation and we have neither fought a signatory power nor been involved in a formally declared war in over 50 years. That issue is, however, another discussion entirely.

As to your concerns about heavy clothing, it actually enhances the penetration of HP's rather than retard it. You see, a HP bullet that has it's cavity clogged with a non-fluid substance such as clothing, dry wall, or plywood will almost always either expand substantially less or fail to expand all together. One of the biggest problems with older HP bullets is that many of them could not reliably expand if they had to penetrate heavy clothing first. Modern HP bullets expand much more reliably through clothing, but the degree of expansion is often less.

There are only three situations in which I would recommend the use ofFMJ or other non-expanding bullets for self-defense against human aggressors. The first two are rather straightforward and self-explanatory: you cannot readily find good quality expanding ammunition for your gun and/or your gun is not reliable with expanding ammo. Obviously, availability and reliability trump all else so there really isn't much need to expound upon the first two exceptions.

The third, however, is a bit more complex: you are using a handgun chambered for a small-caliber such as .22 Long Rifle, .25 ACP, or .32 ACP. While HP ammo has improved drastically over the last 30 years or so, these small calibers still push the limits of HP technology due to their relatively small diameter (and thus small HP cavity), lightweight bullets, and low velocity. While HP ammo is available for these cartridges, it frequently either fails to expand or, even worse, penetrates shallowly. You can have all the expansion in the world, but it won't do you any good unless the bullet can penetrate deeply enough to reach the vital structures of the target. Because of the shallow penetration so often exibited by small-caliber HP's, I prefer FMJ or other non-expanding bullets for mouse guns in order to ensure adequate penetration.
 
I would not use FMJ or MC (metal case) ammo for anything other than range ammo UNLESS the laws in your area say you cannot use an expanding bullet for personal protection.

A FMJ or MC is not made to be a personal protection bullet. It is likely you will end up in a civil suit and lose because of your 'negligence in the ammo you chose to use for personal protection'. If you shoot someone and the penetration caused permanent damage (damaged spine, nerve damage, bone damage, joint damage, brain damage) that is claimed to have come from the extra penetration or if the bullet goes through the BG and hits someone else you just made it much easier for the attorney on the other side to convince a judge or jury that you were negligent and should be held accountable. If your firearm does not shoot ammo made for personal protection reliably buy one that will. It could be much cheaper to buy a different firearm that will shoot personal protection ammo reliably.
 
I have always considered using both. Good expanding bullets have far less penatration than fmj's. I have a staggered magazine or cylinder in all my defensive guns. One premium expanding and then a premium flat nosed fmj, then another expanding and so on. The expanding bullet MAY get to the vitals, but a fmj WILL. Many top proffessionals are coming to the same conclusion. Many are now loading the first 3 rounds with expanding and the remainder with fmj's. There believe is the same as mine. After 3 misses or wounds the assailant aint just standing there, he is hiding behind the couch, dumpster, bookshelf ect. I live where bears are often on the porch in the early morning darkness, but we all know that the most dangerous predator has only 2 legs. This is why I load them alternately. At least every other shot will be appropriate.
 
Yeah, there's a massive difference between FMJ and JHP bullets.

Expanding bullets shouldn't generally have any problem with heavy clothing. If anything, it's possible for the expansion cavity to be clogged with clothing and fail to expand, which increases penetration to near FMJ levels at the expense of expansion.

With the exception of reliability issues, the JHP is usually the best choice for defense for any caliber bigger than a .380. Otherwise, you are trading penetration for expansion.
 
Depends.

Handgun ammo is basically low energy and needs help. HP's help make up for the low energy. While high energy ammo like a (rifle) FMJ 30-06 has no such issue. Typically muzzle energy numbers are about 3000 ft. lbs for the 30-06 compared to say 420 ft. lbs for a decent large caliber semi pistol round. Actually even .223 rifle ammo doesn't need to be HP to provide lots of damage.

Shoot a target at 50 yards with the best pistol HP ammo compared to the same hit with a FMJ 30-06 and you will get the idea.:)

HP ammo helps when you have lower energy rounds like normal pistol ammo.

Agree on the penetration issue. If you don't penetrate then the best ammo in the world will not work. FMJ pistol ammo is still a reasonable all around choice.

It is likely you will end up in a civil suit and lose because of your 'negligence in the ammo you chose to use for personal protection'.

I have never heard or read of that happening due to the choice of FMJ.
 
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One big issue is penetration. For a self defense round the last thing you want is for the bullet to travel all the way in & out of your target. The reason I say this is because if you have an expanding bullet hit with the same velocity and power as a FMJ, it will cause more tissue damage and have more stopping power. I'm not saying FMJ is inefective at all, that would be silly because it's very effective, but each round has it's uses. The military uses FMJ for many reasons. It's deadly, will travel through walls/material better, is better for long distance, & in battle they don't have to worry about hitting the kids or your neighbors next door. Make sure you choose a high quality ammo in the largest caliber YOU'RE comfortable with. A well placed shot from a .22 or .380 will be more effective than a miss with .45. Personally for home defense, my first choice is my 12ga. Mossberg Cruiser with my .45 for backup. Just my 2 cents.:D
 
@ madmag - check with concealed carry or personal defense instructors who are aware of different lawsuits that have been filed around the country based on the different ammo the shooter chose to use. If the law reviews a shooting and decides the shooter had the right to use deadly force, it is still likely the shooter will face a civil lawsuit. Yes, there have been cases where the shooter was sued and lost because they used ammo where the box was stamped with 'Range Ammo' on the box instead of 'Personal Protection'. The same can be said if the shooter uses ammo that is considered hunting ammo. The attorney for the BG will paint their client as a poor, disadvantaged person who never had a chance; and the negligence of the shooter in their ammo choice is why their client is maimed for life.

You say HP are not allowed in NJ. Are soft points allowed in NJ or are FMJ mandated? My original post suggests using expanding personal protection ammo UNLESS the laws in your area say you cannot use it.
 
A FMJ or MC is not made to be a personal protection bullet. It is likely you will end up in a civil suit and lose because of your 'negligence in the ammo you chose to use for personal protection'. If you shoot someone and the penetration caused permanent damage (damaged spine, nerve damage, bone damage, joint damage, brain damage) that is claimed to have come from the extra penetration or if the bullet goes through the BG and hits someone else you just made it much easier for the attorney on the other side to convince a judge or jury that you were negligent and should be held accountable.

The same could be said about JHP. A lawyer could just as easily bring up that you chose to use JHP ammunition which is designed to expand and cause maximum injury to the poor, underprivileged mugger that tried to kill you. A lawyer could conceivably use any choice of ammunition to paint you as a bloodthirsty monster, so it's kind of a catch-22.
 
Discern said:
You say HP are not allowed in NJ. Are soft points allowed in NJ or are FMJ mandated?

I think the NJ law states hollow nose. Not sure about soft nose but I don't see it restricted. You can own HP ammo and even use it on the range, but you cannot load or use HP's for SD.

Webleymkv said:
A lawyer could conceivably use any choice of ammunition to paint you as a bloodthirsty monster, so it's kind of a catch-22.

Seems the case to me. Most I have read about try to use the fact that you used high powered deadly HP ammo against the defender.
 
@Webleymkv - if the law said the shooter had the right to use deadly force, the major point of attack the attorney for the BG is likely to use in a civil lawsuit is that the shooter was incompetent and/or negligent. This is why concealed carry and personal protection instructors strongly recommend using ammo that has 'Personal Protection' on the ammo box or at least listed as a personal protection round on the manufacturers website.

Your comment about the lawyer of the BG claiming your JHP Personal Protection ammo caused all this damage is a reason you do not want to use ammo that is considered to be hunting ammo. Again, if it is ruled there will be not criminal charges against the shooter the attorney for the BG will try to paint the shooter as being incompetent or negligent. This is another reason I would use factory personal protection ammo and not ammo that I handloaded. They could try to claim factory personal protection ammo was not good enough for the shooter.

Your comment about the attorney for the BG trying to paint the shooter as being blood thirsty is a reason only a competent and qualified gunsmith should do any modifications to your firearm. I would not bypass any safeties (mag disconnect safety, etc.). It is the reason I would use factory ammo the manufacturer says was made for personal protection.
 
Somehow I was thinking of expanding full metal jacket ammo when the OP mentioned expanding ammo. Assuming I was thinking at the time. Whatever happened to that stuff anyway?
 
Secret, Federal still makes EFMJ.

I personally use SD ammo labelled "Law Enforcement." If anybody asks why I choose to carry ammo designed for police it is easy to justify. If they think it is the best to protect their lives and mine, who am I to disagree?
 
if the law said the shooter had the right to use deadly force, the major point of attack the attorney for the BG is likely to use in a civil lawsuit is that the shooter was incompetent and/or negligent.

While I'm not a lawyer, don't play one on TV, and didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night, this would seem like a pretty weak argument to me. It would seem to me that a good attorney could counter such an argument by pointing out that had the plaintiff chosen not to attack the defendant and cause him to fear for his life, he would not have been shot at all. Quite frankly, a good shoot is a good shoot and I very much doubt that a civil suit would hold much water in the first place unless the circumstances and/or details of the shooting were "murky" to begin with.

This is why concealed carry and personal protection instructors strongly recommend using ammo that has 'Personal Protection' on the ammo box or at least listed as a personal protection round on the manufacturers website.

Do you have any direct quotations, with citation of course, of well-known and respected trainers saying as much?

Your comment about the lawyer of the BG claiming your JHP Personal Protection ammo caused all this damage is a reason you do not want to use ammo that is considered to be hunting ammo. Again, if it is ruled there will be not criminal charges against the shooter the attorney for the BG will try to paint the shooter as being incompetent or negligent.

Or perhaps the BG's attorney will attempt to argue that the defendant, through his choice of JHP ammo specifically designed to cause maximum trauma to the target, used excessive force when defending against the plaintiff's attack. There is a reason that most ammo makers have, over the years, come up with less threatening sounding names for their products. Ever heard of the Winchester Black Talons? Same principle.

This is another reason I would use factory personal protection ammo and not ammo that I handloaded. They could try to claim factory personal protection ammo was not good enough for the shooter.

While I agree with your recommendation against handloads, I don't carry them for different reasons. I refuse to carry handloads not because of civil liability but because of possible discrepancies in gunshot residue as compared to factory ammo. Mas Ayoob has detailed such discrepancies on this forum and elsewhere.

Look, I'm not saying that FMJ is necessarily a better choice than JHP because in most cases it isn't. However, there are a few instances in which FMJ's are better for very specific reasons such as those I described in post #3. I simply have a hard time believing that a lawyer could make you look worse with your grandpa's Remington Rand 1911 loaded with Hardball than with your XD45 Tactical loaded with Federal Hydra-Shoks or that a Ruger Single Six loaded with LRN is going to open you to greater criminal liability than a S&W 327 TRR8 stoked with Cor-Bon DPX. If your choice of ammunition is all the BG's lawyer has to come after you with, he's probably grasping at straws and can be countered by a good attorney of your own. A civil suit is a distant third on my priority list behind surviving the actual attack and staying out of criminal court. I'll use whatever is the most effective ammunition available for my particular firearms and if that lands me in civil court, well at least I'm alive to be sued.
 
@Webleymkv I am not a attorney either. However, I personally know concealed carry and personal protection instructors along with LEOs, and these were their suggestions. I am just tying to give input on how an attorney for a BG may try to use ammo that is not made for personal protection to paint the shooter as being negligent or incompetent. There have been cases where FMJ ammo was used, and the other side also tried to present the shooter as being a Rambo due to the fact the shooter used 'military issue ammo'. Many cases have been lost on a weak argument. You want to give the attorney of the BG the least amount of facts and information they can spin and twist. IMO, you have a better chance of winning if you use what is made for personal protection. Also, you do not shoot to kill but rather shoot to stop. What you do is your decision. I am just trying to give information I have been told by trained professionals. You can take it or leave it.
 
Shooting in SD is risky business. If you hit an innocent by stander then you ill have issues, no matter if it was HP or FMJ.

Webleymkv said:
I'll use whatever is the most effective ammunition available for my particular firearms and if that lands me in civil court, well at least I'm alive to be sued.

That also remains my philosophy.
 
Love that Speer Gold Dot ammo with SELF DEFENSE printed in big letters right on the box. Gold Dot. It sounds like something akin to the gold stars you got for doing good work in grade school. Contrast that against the undertones of some other brand name ammo.
 
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