Exceeding maximum published pressures

Janders

Inactive
I recently got into the Howa barreled action club. I ordered mine with a 6.5 Creedmoor chamber. I have been getting familiar with the 6.5 by reading through many forums including this one.
It seems to be a common theme to dismiss published maximum powder weights with impunity.
Example, Nosler,s maximum powder for the 6.5 Creedmoor, 140gr. Bullet using the sacred H4350 is 41.0.
Hogdon,s maximum for the same powder and bullet is 40.0.
Yet I have read many threads where reloaders are using 42.6 and up.
This pattern is rampant and it is not just the Creedmoor.
What am I missing?
I would never exceed a manufacturers published maximum warning.
Thanks for your thoughts on this subject.
Jeff
 
Under most circumstances nobody should go beyond maximum loads. There are exceptional circumstances where it is possible if the reloader is cautious and knows exactly what they are doing. For example, if you have a long jump in your chamber and want to seat the bullet long, it MAY enable you to add more powder without exceeding max pressure and get more velocity. Also one might have a very hefty gun compared to the industry standard that will take higher pressures such as a Super Red Hawk.

I think many of the people trying to go beyond max are trying to compensate for something and many are trying to show off. Is it worth 50 or 100 fps to possibly hurt yourself or wear out your gun?

That being said, I purchased a G40 10mm that will handle more than SAAMI max pressure specifications because older and different gun models must be taken into consideration when those maximums are published. I have tested up to those hotter loads and reserve them for defense ammo. It's hard on things. In most circumstances it's dangerous.
 
Many things effect the pressure generated by a load. I've had brass that had more volume then most other brands that produced lower pressures. You should always look for high pressure signs even when not at a max load. Over many years I've learned that you can't always depend on reading primers. With rifles the big thing for me is measuring the case expansion just ahead of the base.
 
Here's why exceeding published maximums powder charges is sometimes ok. But you need to distinguish between max published pressure and max published powder charge. Max published pressure is standardized by SAAMI, not hodgdon or hornady etc.

- You don't know the deminsions of the test barrel chamber, throat, etc and if it was tighter than yours, less powder for more pressure.

-published maxes are sometimes not actual SAAMI max. 10mm Auto is a case and point on this one. Most manuals max' s are well below 37,500 psi

-Brass brands are not all the same. The 300 win mag is perhaps the most egregious example: Remington brass has an average case water overflow volume of 88 gr and Norma is 95.5 gr....and once fired 300wm brass may grow by 0.02" from casehead to datum.

- Different seating depths than listed in the manual may change things dramatically.

- Not all primers are the same. Winchester large pistol are hotter than other large pistol for instance

-powder lots may vary with some being slower

I exceed max published from time to time. But I have found other instances where published max was over max in my gun. Using military brass in .308 i hav3 seen a middle load yield pierced primers because the brass is heavy with less volume than commercial. My .270 has q tight chamber and somewhat short throat such that 3 gr under hodgdons published max yields max velocity.
 
This is the simple answer. The cartridge was designed fo average brass and the rifles were designed for the average pressure.


On the flip side, you have guys buying high dollar cases, annealing every reload and shooting them out of custom action and barrel combinations that could handle a severe overpressure round. These people turn up the pressure until the lugs seat firmly and give best accuracy. Their rifle, brass combinations can handle it.
 
Blame the bench rest guys. Lol

For example. The 284 Win has a SAAMI max pressure of 56,000 psi. The 6.5-284 runs at 63,000 psi.
Now they are shooting the 284 Shehane (think Ackley Improved) and pushing a 168gr. bullet to speeds about what i'm getting with a 140 gr.bullet.
 
There's a difference between exceeding maximum loads and exceeding maximum pressures. More to max pressure than just powder charge. Folks that know what they are doing, know this. Folks that don't know what they are doing should stick to published loads.
 
"Remington brass has an average case water overflow volume of 88 gr and Norma is 95.5 gr....and once fired 300wm brass may grow by 0.02" from casehead to datum. "

Norma case walls are thinner?
I fall into the category of a guy that will stick to published data.:)
 
First I don't start up high, so I am not close to anyone maximum let alone the highest out there.

Looking at a node I have touched up into those area and exceeded them a bit, got pressure signs and backed down of course.

The max loads are not absolute for all setups, its the thing about "Here Be Dragons".

While I am not into it, if you know what you are doing and do it right you can play in that space, but you darned sure need to watch the P&Q and not just run off the rails willy nilly.

You can tell the yahoos from the prudent ones on how they approach the limits.

It should be pretty hard to blow up a modern gun, but I saw the aftermath so despite 150% proof pressures, you can take something over and blow it up.

I don't know if they got pistol powder mixed in, but it sent the barrel down range 25 feet, blew the receiver wide open, sent shrapnel left and right and probably 10 grand in dental work for the guy shooting the gun (not his, testing for a shop)

One bystander got smacked with a piece with bruising only fortunately, we found another piece embedded in the back wall of the shooting shed. That would have done serious damage if someone had been standing in its way.
 
Manuals will always be slightly different. They reflect the averages of loads tested on the day of the test using the exact components listed, barrel length and environmental conditions. Plus different powder lots alone can give different velocities and pressures.
"...common theme to dismiss published maximum powder weights..." Never seen anybody on these forums doing that. Suggesting doing that on a forum creates liability issues.
 
Manuals are a guide. What happens in your rifle will be different.

Pressure is a difficult topic to discuss.

Lets understand that your rifle was designed to meet a number of design requirements. Requiring documents are often in tens of pages, the complicated the item, the more requirements. A few very basic requirements are cost, maximum load, and duty cycle.

All mechanical structures are designed to a maximum load. This is always below material yield of the structure. For a rifle mechanism, the maximum load I would design to would be pressure maximum times the OD of the case at maximum case head separation. That will come out to pounds force. Safety factors are applied because there is uncertainty to the materials, manufacturing tolerances, heat treatments, etc. Safety factors are customary and vary by industry. They also change, typically, get smaller as technology improves processes and materials.

Commercial rifle actions are typically designed for a class of cartridges, so the M700 was designed for belted magnums, so it is actually stronger than needed, assuming similar materials and heat treatments, than what would be needed for standard (30-06) cartridges.

This is important to understand for those who want to convert old military actions to belted magnums. Military M96's and M98's were built for cartridges that had averaged 43,000 CUP.

You can build a decent sporter rifle on a Mauser but I consider that there are several factors that must be considered. The first is the age of the action. I have zero confidence of the materials from the WW1 era and before. This is the “pre vacuum tube” era. Technology did not spread as fast as an email. Technology was advancing faster after WW1 than before, especially metallurgical technology and understanding, but, that does not mean money was being spent in Military Arsenals. Military budgets had been slashed after WW1 and if the American example is similar to other Western Nations, hardly any funding went into Arsenals after WW1 for improvements. In the US, rifle production was shut down at Eddystone Arsenal, Eddystone was used as a storage depot. The Rock Island production line shut down and unfinished parts shipped to Springfield Armory. Springfield Armory had around 5129 employees in 1918, then 2,408 in June 1919, a low of 232 in 1935. After the Depression of 1929, you were lucky to have a job, 25% of the population did not. Employee numbers rebounded somewhat in 1938 to 1285 in anticipation of America entering WW2. The Defense Budget when up by a factor of five times between 1938 and 1939! Europe was already at war in 1939, but prior to Hitler, military budgets were equally as small in Western Europe.

As a rule, the older the rifle, the less certain the metallurgy. It is worth looking at the CHRONOLOGICAL HISTORY OF CODES AND STANDARDS FOR STANDARDIZATION & TESTING DEPARTMENT https://cstools.asme.org/csconnect/FileUpload.cfm?View=yes&ID=32642 for an idea of how immature metal technology was in the pre vacuum tube era. Defining technological advancement is basically a guess, there is not a list of which industries, which factories incorporated advancing technologies. You can make a general assessment based on “everything”, an assessment which is not going to be very accurate or precise. Basically I consider the “pre vacuum tube era” to be up to the early part of the 1920’s. The closer you get to WW2 the better the manufacturing technology, assuming factories adopted improvements, such as electricity and vacuum tube based process control equipment. And that is not a given. I would say based on the technology of the era and the funding of the age, that rifles made in the 1930’s should have cleaner steels and should be made with more advanced manufacturing technology than previous decades. All of this is theoretical sophistry, someone would have to go out and test individual receivers for materials and grain structure to see if Quality Control had improved as you would expect as technology improved. Advancements in the Government sector are not linear, they are quantum. The big funding for Government Arsenals did not occur until Hitler started occupied countries in the late 1930’s.

So I consider when the receiver was made to be important for assessing risk. I also consider the cartridge to be used very important. I consider conversions of military actions to cartridges that provide bolt thrust loads above that of the standard 8mm cartridge to be risky, if not dangerous. Some cartridge conversions are dangerous in my estimation, particularly those in 60,000 + psi belted magnums.

A simple analysis:

From Cartridges of the World

8 mm case head diameter 0.470” Area 0.1735 square inches
300 Win Mag case head diameter 0.515” Area 0.2083 square inches

Bolt face loads

8mm (Mauser design loads) 0.1735 in ² X 43, 371 lbs/ in ² = 7, 525 lbs

300 Win Mag = 0.2083 in ² X 65,000 lbs/ in ² = 13, 539 lbs

The 300 Win Mag provides an 80% increase in bolt thrust over standard military loads.

I have seen nothing to indicate that Mauser, or Yugoslavia, or FN, or anyone else building 8mm military Mauser actions built these military actions to a higher pressure standard. We know that the steels used were plain carbon steels, steels that are so low grade today they are used for cheap rebar and rail road ties. No one in their right mind today would design a safety critical rifle receiver out of such inferior materials. The average 8mm cartridge pressure did rise by a couple of thousands in WW2, that may have been because the Military was willing to accept a reduced service life, or that they thought improved production processes produced a cleaner steel. We do know from historical records lugs cracked on new service rifles. Rifle & Carbine 98: M98 Firearms of the German Army from 1898 to 1918 Dieter writes that the bolt lugs broke on 1:1000 of GEW98 service rifles used by the Bavarian Army Corp! This was when the cartridge pressure was 43,000 psia.

There is evidence of what happens to old WW1 Mauser made receivers when chambered for inappropriate cartridges as can be seen in the lug set back in this Argentine 1909 action.

Advice for re-heat treating Zastava Mausers.

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/4142510/1
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LugSetbackTop.jpg
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Commercial rifle actions made of modern materials are sized for the largest cartridge possible, but never assume that a vintage military action won't fail with a cartridge whose load exceeds that of the standard military cartridge.

Then there is the issue of duty cycle, which I am going to say, is the maximum number of loads fired at maximum pressure. This is an interesting number that no one publishes. We know the US Army requirement for a service rifle was 6,000 rounds. And a re built M16, from a lot of rebuilt M16's, is typically fired 6,000 rounds at Anniston Army Depot as a quality check on the rebuild process. For any rifle to complete 6000 rounds without failing it obviously must be able to fire more. And what you find on AR15.com is that AR15 bolts typically fail around 10,000 rounds, some fail sooner, some fail earlier. But no rifle or mechanical mechanism is designed for an infinite number of duty cycles, except perhaps, the Pyramids. Build any locking mechanism to the weight of even the smallest Pyramid, it will last an infinity of standard pressure rounds, but the rifling will still wash out. Build a rifle not to weigh more than 8lbs, stock, lock, and barrel, and the designer has to accept, even if the user does not, that the locking mechanism will fail after a certain number of rounds are fired. You can expect that the lifetime of any light duty firearm is in the tens of thousands of rounds, like 10,000 rounds, 20,000 rounds, don't count on it lasting much more with with maximum pressure loads. Might in fact, last less.

This is worth looking at:

Fatique Life of 4140 steel

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?150409-Ruger-om-44-convertible&highlight=convertible
Just a few thoughts on this. For Background I am a mechanical engineer with a heavy background in failure and fatigue.

I wonder if I could request a high quality photo of the fracture zone of the cylinder? I am specifically interested in the grain structure of the bolt notches.

I put fort the following.

1) Firearms in general (the type we plebeians can get our mits one) are not designed for infinite fatigue life.

2) The Factors of safety used in firearms design are in line with low end of fatigue requirements (usually less than 10,000 cycles).

3) One of the funny things about fatigue is that each time you push the material past its original design point, you lower its expected life.

4) I am looking at this as an older gun with an unknown number of rounds through it. but based on its age a substantial round count seems likely.

5) When these firearms are designed it is generally preferable for something else to go before the cylinder lets go and takes the top strap. Generally this takes the form of the gun wearing loose or the barrel wearing out. But they are designed to handle X rounds at standard pressures.

6) I see alot of folks calculate the strengths of Rugers, but these calculations are only ever performing an evaluation on a straight static pressure basis. This is wrong when trying to determine if a load is safe.

I attached a couple of marked up figures for your perusal


If any steel structure exceeds yield, that is it stretches, deforms, it should not be used again. The cycles to failure of any steel structure is dramatically reduced if it is stressed beyond yield.

So to combine these, shoot maximum or above maximum pressure rounds which correspond to maximum or above maximum loads, the lifetime of the locking mechanism will be less than if the firearm was fired with light loads. Fatigue lifetime is directly related to load. The great the load, the less duty cycles the structure will take before failure.

If winning is the most important consideration, such as race cars, than rebuilding or scrapping an engine after ever race is perfectly fine, even though hideously expensive. Race car teams go through tens of millions of dollars a year, I heard $60 million was as little you could spend and expect to do OK. The engine just has to complete one race. These guys burn out engines and the cost is just in the noise. At the end of the season, the vehicle is probably technological obsolete and that is where barn yard finds come from.

So, are you willing to push your action so that it cracks a bolt, or deforn receiver seats, in hundreds of rounds, thousands of rounds? Are you willing to pay the cost of a new rifle and receiver at the end of each season?

There is risk with pushing things. Friends who were into race cars talked about flywheels coming through the floor boards and vehicles flipped when the drive shaft broke and speared the pavement. Any rifle or pistol action that fatigue fails, it might not give warning before exploding in front of your face. People have lost eyes when extractors blew out of actions, catastrophic failures are rather unpredictable.

By the way, I think it dangerous to rebore a used rifle barrel. The rifle chamber carries more load than the locking mechanism by virtue more surface area of the cartridge is in the chamber. Rifle barrels should be discarded once the rifling is worn. I found on another forum an example of an old 30-06 which had been shot out, then rechambered in 35 Whelen. It blew on its first or second factory round. Ounces of material were removed from the barrel, it was made of old steel, and it had gone through one service life. Why people think old pressure vessels can be weakened, then, go through another service life is beyond me.

Now the cartridge is the weakest link in the whole system. This is contrary to a dominant thought system in the American shooting society, which I call "Hatcherism". Hatcherites are rightly concerned about increasing bolt thrust, but their belief system is screwed up. It is in fact, based on an pre WW1 Army Hoax. Hatcherites believe the action is weak and the case is strong. So do Ackleyites. P.O. Ackley built his reputation and live hood on the fraudulent idea his case designs reduced bolt thrust, by making the case carry load. This is, in a word: nuts. The case is a thin brass tube/pressure vessel. The idea that the thin brass sidewalls are there to take load off a 1/2" thick steel structure, is, nuts.

FE6dz3L.jpg


The case is a gas seal, the action is there to protect the case from stretching, from rupturing. You rupture the cartridge case , gas will rush out into the mechanism, and the firearm is not designed to take the gas load, and, particularly for older mechanisms, will blow up in fragments. I have not studied the load limits of cartridges, but it is obvious brass is weaker than steel. And, if Hatcherites and Ackleyites actually tried it, they could not design any firearm following the principals of Hatcherism or Ackleyism, one reason being, they don't believe the action is there to support the cartridge case .

Anyway, regardless of the structural strength of any action, the cartridge case is far weaker.
 
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Reading the OP, I can't offer much more, but a couple points:

If you read shooting and reloading forums, you will certainly encounter folks who flat out ignore the manuals. Not many, but we've all seen examples of "my handloads outdo yours". As Dad used to say, "If your buddies jumped off a bridge, would you do it too?"

It is possible to get an overpressure situation in your rifle within published loads. As has been stated, depends on a number of factors. One example off the top of my head: I'm way below Speer's max for 357 Sig, but getting design velocity.

One thing that affects the max load in manuals is how they're presented. Speer and Nosler run to what they consider safe pressure, in their test rifle of course, and publish the number. Others (Sierra and Hornady) go to the nearest 100 fps. So Speer might publish a max load at say 2,863 fps, while Hornady would take what may be the same numbers and publish the charge for 2,800.

Chrono or not is a debate in itself, but I like to use one. It's like a TV sales offer. If it seems too good to be true, it probably is. That extra velocity I'm seeing probably is due more to f=ma than my good looks.
 
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