Even more powdery discussion: Affirmative Action.

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powderedonuts

Moderator
According to insane, affirmative action is a way to pay back minorities for some sort of crime we commited against them.

According to us, (and also the insane at stormfront), affirmative action is nothing but racism in reverse.

WHAT JUSTIFICATIONS ARE THERE FOR AFFIRMATIVE ACTION>?>?!?!?!

Why is it that a college can limit the # of whites that can enter the school, but when they try to limit the staggering number of minorities (primarily asian of course), this suddenly becomes racist and is highly critisized?

Why does racism only flow in one direction this day and age? Affirmative action is supposed to be our way of making up for the wrongs we commited. Well all I know is, it wasn't ME who commited the crimes:

If someone commits a murder, should the murderer's son be punished even though he had nothing to do with it?

Two of my friends have not been able to get into the college of their choice, because two mexicans with a MUCH lower GPA and SAT score were let in instead. This is in the state of Kalifornia btw, bleh. I am sure glad not to beliving there! The people who are suffering from this legislation are not the ones who commited the wrong doing.

Affirmative action only ENCOURAGES racism. It puts the idea that not all races are equal (something I personally believe) into the legal system. This is what democrats argue so much against, they are constantly saying that all races are equal, that any imbalances are a fault of society.

I will just end by saying:

In the animal kingdom, a species can evolve overtime to take on different looks, due to isolation and environmental factors. Take the European honey bee, compared to the Africanized honey bees. One is docile, the other, highly highly aggresive (what are known as "killer bees") One species that changed due to seperation and environmental factors.

Now we know that humans have been seperate and adapted to different environments. This is obvious just in the fact that different races LOOK different. Why is it so hard to believe that there could be genetic differences in behavior and tendencies also? We are told that the LOOK is the only difference, going against all evidence and parallels to the animal kingdom.

I am not encouraging racism, so please dont delete this or take it the wrong way. I have to bring that point up because I feel Affirmative Action is a racist system. It goes against what the people who legislated it have been saying for years, showing that they believe certain races can't make due without help. How can "they" outwardly tell us that all races are equal, then pass a system like this.

Hipocrits much??


That is all, please think about that and give your opinion on affirmative action. If you dissagree with me completely that is totally fine, please discuss is civilized like regardless tho.

Thx.

~Your powdery goodness
 
Powdery, as in snow-whiteness?

I'd like to think noone here is going to engage someone who aligns themselves with white supremist groups (stormfront) in a polite discussion about anything involving race.


You want to talk injustice? I hear tell they done got rid of Apartied! :rolleyes: (Yes, ladies and gentlemen, I'm being sarcastic.)



How about keeping the hate on some other forum?
 
Affirmative Action should be applied where it is needed. Beleive it or not we still have bigotry and ignorance in the 21st Century :eek:

pay a trip to Stormfront......

There are companies that have bad practices...and some remedy is required.
My father taught me to be a respecter of the person and his character. I beleive in the best qualified for a job regardless of whatever your ethnic background. However there are still some folks out there that dont believe in best qualified...and discriminate. Its not merely a racial issue. dicrimination can be due to age, sex, religion, race, sexual preference ect. So wrongs are still being commited in the 21st Century :eek:

If a definite pattern of discrimination is found that means you have to make right the wrong. Isnt that the same thing we do in civil court everday? make right by awarding damages or actions? Affirmative action is nothing more than that.

However in the wrong hands Affirmative Action can trigger what it was meant to solve.

simply placing a person in a job because he is a minority is wrong. Using Objective standards and affirmative action can be a good thing.

just like a firearm it can be used for bad or good.
 
Affirmative Action is racist in a reverse prospective than what your driving at.. though it is racist in a way against non-minorities who try get into good schools or get jobs from Affirmative Action employers, who choose who to accept based on skin color, which is wrong.

It says that the minority can't get anywhere without the help of the liberal democrat.. that the minority needs help getting a decent job, or getting into college, since the liberal democrat assumes that minority is not intelligent enough to do either for himself.
 
So if a minorty run company actively discriminates against white males by denying them promotions and equal salaries and there is a clear pattern of discrimination then no action should be taken?
 
If you really want to get into it, its their policy, let them loose out. If the guy is skilled, then they loose. Its that simple.
 
Affirmative action is a tool to try and jump start a broken part of our society. Sometimes a few individual injustices are worthwhile if there is ultimately a pay-off for the society in general.

If affirmative action actually worked (which is certainly debateable), it would lower the crime rate and increase the employment rate. To argue that individual rights are always more important than safer streets and healthier economy is a difficult argument to make. We don't view military service this way: An individual's sacrifice for country is viewed positively, there.


BUT, if it isn't working, then the individual injustice wasn't worthwhile.
 
I'm going to go back in time and tell you of a situation . The LT's took the Captains test at a large Fire Department . The highest score was a white LT . He had a test score of 1100 . The highest black LT got a score of 700 . The black got the job . Now . Figure he is running the show . A BIG fire . Lots of stuff to contend with . You depend on him to make sure you get the water support that will keep you alive . He can't handle it because as the test indicated , he does not know enough . You die . This opens up the larger door . The "new" black guy is introduced to all the people . The first thing that goes through everybodys mind is "is he qualified or just looks good on paper". The pitfalls of affirmative action have documented ad nausem . Many companies have given jobs to "minorities" and had others babysit them so they don't look bad . I'm sure many libs will deny this but it has been proven so true for so long that it is very much "carved in stone". Libs really think that "minorities" are so stupid that they MUST be given the job that they would not otherwise qualify for . This in itself is prima facia proof .
 
I beleive in the best qualified for a job regardless of whatever your ethnic background. However there are still some folks out there that dont believe in best qualified...and discriminate. Its not merely a racial issue. dicrimination can be due to age, sex, religion, race, sexual preference ect. So wrongs are still being commited in the 21st Century
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Then why does the government step over more qualified white job applicants to hire less competant non-whites?
 
Affirmative Action will only have my support when it addresses CLASS discrepancies instead of COLOR. Poor white people need just as much help as poor black ones.
 
Another thing about affirmative action....Say you have 100 white guys and 10 slots available for white guys (because of affirmative action, the other 10 slots go to blacks, females, Hispanics etc..) After the 10 white guys get their spots, you're going to have 90 other white guys who swear they would have gotten one of those 20 spots if it weren't for affirmative action. You ever hear a white guy say "Even without affirmative action, that black guy should have gotten the job over me because he was better qualified"? Surely it must happen every now and then.....

Then why does the government step over more qualified white job applicants to hire less competant non-whites?
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In some cases, civil service especially, it probably has to do with the fact that the black guys who are now in charge remember what it was like to be a black guy in an organization controlled by white guys and "white culture" back in the 70's or in some cases, even earlier.
 
TJ,

Your point about class is well made, and I agree in principle. However, numerically it is insignificant. And when you observe that racism (people like Powdereddonuts) is still a factor, it is more compelling to deal with both issues as a package.
 
I wrote that affirmative action is a tool that can be misused or did you miss that part.....

If the basis is race only....then its misused

and race is not the only factor in affirmative action..but it seems that all you guys are zeroed in on.

race, age, religion, sex, sexual preferences...

Even in the 21st century there are places that allow discrimination to continue....

Mike I am a federal civil service employee.... I dont see what you are describing going on :confused: you apply for a job by doing a resume now. you submit that resume in for a certain job. based on that resume and your education and experience you are rated as qualified or not qualified for a job.
if you are qualified then you get put on a selection list. the person that does the hiring interviews the applicants and makes the selction from a list he is given. Now if you are white and have driven trucks for UPS for 10 years and apply for a gubmint rocket scientist job and all the other applicants are black and have the education and experience and get put on a list for hire that is not discrimination.
 
How do you fix poor?

by giving them money?

I wasnt born with a silver spoon in my mouth and know what bit having oney means. However, I didnt let that stand in the way of getting and education and advancing myself. I even paid for my own college......

if you dont have a desire to bette yourself no program in the world is going to help you
 
Here's my take from my experience.

Racism is here to stay, it cuts both ways, and it cannot be eradicated through legislation.

When I entered the Navy, I was a white southern boy with a thick accent. I was surprised to find that many of my black, hispanic and islander shipmates automatically assumed I was racist. Over time, several minority shipmates became trusted friends who I went on liberty with in many distant cultures. Of course, in Japan, we were all minorities.

When I left the Navy, I became a nurse. I did two semesters along that course of study at a historically black college, Grambling State, in a historically black community, Grambling, Louisiana. I was in the minority both in race and in culture. I learned a lot, I advise anyone working in a service profession to do a semester or two at a school where they are the minority.

I am now a nurse with over a decade under my belt. I serve in the deprived communities in my area, in people's homes. We get to know each other well.
Several weeks ago, I went to see a woman of 65 or so years who was coming home on Dobutrex IV. I had to teach her husband to maintain the infusion, and I had scheduled in 2 hours for the task. He was standing on his front porch waiting when I got out of my car, grabbed my bag from the trunk and used my remote to lock the car doors. I went inside. We did about 15 minutes of paperwork, and then I began to teach, as her bag was getting close to empty. It did not go well. He did not seem to want to learn. I completed the task, exchanged pleasantries with her, and asked him to meet me on the front porch.

On his porch, I directly asked him what I had done to offend him, since I knew he wanted his wife to be able to stay at home, and he knew he had to learn how to do the infusion to make that happen. He told me directly that I did not have to lock my doors in his driveway. Hmmmmmmm. I told him, yes I did, that I carried medicine, needles and syringes, and other things in there that I, and others, could not afford to have stolen, regardless of the low risk. I told him I always lock my doors, even in my own driveway, and even in the best parts of town. This satisfied him, and I tried to find some common ground.

He was obviously a vet, so I asked him his dates of service and branch. Uh,oh. USMC, 1965 until 1986. I laughed. "Well there you have it, that's why we don't get along" I said, "I am ex-Navy."
We chuckled, talked about our service a bit, and then he said "Of course back then there was a lot of racism in the service."
I smirked and said "What are you talking about? There still is."
He quietly said "Thank you, thank you."

The topic changed back to his wife's infusion, and we went back inside his home. He learned to do a very complicated task involving calculations of changing variables, with dire consequences for failure in just one visit. I learned a very complex lesson with with changing variables and dire consequences for failure in one visit as well. Today, his wife is doing well, and I am the only nurse he will let in his home. I am proud to call him a friend.

Sometimes you cannot repay a person for the wrongs they have felt. You can recognize the wrongs though, and often, that is all that is desired anyway.
 
It says that the minority can't get anywhere without the help of the liberal democrat.. that the minority needs help getting a decent job, or getting into college, since the liberal democrat assumes that minority is not intelligent enough to do either for himself.
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That's basically my take on affirmitive action as well. It says that if you're not a white heterosexual male, then you're incompetent and inferior to those who are, and unable to stand on you're own two feet.

Quite frankly, I'm suprised the idiots at Stormfront would be against legislation that basically says all thier BS rhetoric is right.... but of course, they're not exactly the sharpest knives in the drawer.
 
Mike I am a federal civil service employee.... I dont see what you are describing going on you apply for a job by doing a resume now. you submit that resume in for a certain job. based on that resume and your education and experience you are rated as qualified or not qualified for a job.
if you are qualified then you get put on a selection list. the person that does the hiring interviews the applicants and makes the selction from a list he is given. Now if you are white and have driven trucks for UPS for 10 years and apply for a gubmint rocket scientist job and all the other applicants are black and have the education and experience and get put on a list for hire that is not discrimination.
Click to expand...

That's great, if you get to the part where they look at your resume. I know a few European-Americans who have applied for Federal jobs, taken the test, and never heard back from the govt. again. I don't believe that Affirmative Action isn't alive and well in the federal system as well and state and local.
 
It doesn't matter whether something is fair, or "right", or is charity, or paints a group in a bad light. Our society has some pretty severe social problems. If whatever program manages to get us past those problems, who cares how it worked in the mean time?
 
Mr. Frank I am an Anglo White Heterosexual Male as far as the block on the forms are concerned.

I didnt take a test for my civil service position...the US Postal Service does tho.

What you are referring to is when an individual circumvents hiring practices to show preference to someone else for some reason...not Affirmative Action.
violation of policy.

I too have had the same trouble but I didnt blame it on Affirmative Action. I just used superior cunning and skill and the rules to overcome it. it was the work of individuals not an entire race of people. I prevailed.....

Everyplace has a set of rules....learn them well and use them to your advantage when the dogs of war are loosed....

As far as Affirmative Action goes it should only be used in a place when there has been a clear cut case of discrimination as a remedy...it is not a tool to simply be used to try and be politically correct.

As far as myself I used best qualified...you can be a 3 ft polka dot drag queen on your own personal time as far as I am concerend as long as you leave the personal stuff at home when you hit work and do your job to the fullest.
 
I haven't dealt with the Fed in over 20 yrs., so I don't know if it's still the same or not, but while Affirmative Action was established with good intentions, the gov, as usual, decided to use a .700 Nitro Express to hunt field mice. I was a National Park Ranger when my father died and forced my return to the Valley. When I first came back, I naturally wanted to stay in a related field, so one of the places I applied to was Berlin Reservoir. There was an opening for superintendent, and I was in the running with the final 3 applicants, along with a female minority. I had the experience, excellent job refs, a bachelor's degree and some grad school, and veteran's preference. She had none of the above, but she got the job. Now I grew up in a community made up of all kinds of ethnic backgrounds. It was a tough town of steelworkers, coal miners and construction workers, and anybody that wanted work could get it. To me, racism was a vague concept in a civics textbook, and I had friends from a lot of backgrounds. I never gave a thought to liking or disliking somebody based on their ethnic culture. But that experience left me with a bitter taste in my mouth, and while that one experience wouldn't affect me, I can see how it might cause even more division in some circles. My firm belief is and always will be, choose based on the best qualifications and work history, and nothing more.

[edit-spelling :o ]
 
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