Did you ever think of how the parent's of the two shooter's feel? Not only are their sons dead, but they killed 16 others with them. And now the parents are going to be sued?!? They are the ones that are going to suffer because their kids decided to join the "Trench Coat Mafia". How do you feel about this topic?
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Even If The Kids Did It
- Thread starter Zach
- Start date
Brett Bellmore
New member
I'm of two minds about this; On the one hand, it does seem like piling on. On the other, DIDN'T THESE DWEEBS NOTICE WHAT WAS GOING ON? And why isn't it the local police who're being sued; The parents of one of the victims REPEATEDLY pointed out to them death threats the killers had put on their internet site, to no avail.
Ed Brunner
New member
In our modern,liberal,permissive society parents dont usually keep their 17 and 18 year old children on a tight leash.After all the children deserve their own space.
I dont know enough to conclude that the parents were at fault in not knowing what the children were doing.
They have lost their child.In this respect their loss is the same as that of any other parent. Theirs is complicated by the fact that their child was at the center of this entire event.
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Better days to be,
Ed
I dont know enough to conclude that the parents were at fault in not knowing what the children were doing.
They have lost their child.In this respect their loss is the same as that of any other parent. Theirs is complicated by the fact that their child was at the center of this entire event.
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Better days to be,
Ed
Rob Pincus
New member
Zach,
My wife agrees with you completely. We have been arguing about it for almost a week. She thinks they have been punished enough.. I contend that if they let their kids do everything right under their noses, then they have brought it upon themselves.
It is a tough situation, that's for sure.....
My wife agrees with you completely. We have been arguing about it for almost a week. She thinks they have been punished enough.. I contend that if they let their kids do everything right under their noses, then they have brought it upon themselves.
It is a tough situation, that's for sure.....
I don't know how far the rest of you are from the 17-18 year old stage, but i'm 21. I remember it it was yesterday it almost was. At 17-18, males are taught that they need to be independent. At the that age, if now now still, I push (not phyisically) my parents away when they start prying about stuff. I will bet that the 2 suspects did the same thing.
Then there are the reports of misc lethal stuff lying in plain view in one of the suspects rooms. Do you know how often my parents get into my room when I'm around? Never. if the parents had any respect for the kids, they would rarely set foot in their teenage sons room when he is not around. I'm sure the stuff was lying around cuzs they knew they would never be back.
Also, these kids were smart, look at the reports that they fooled a judge and basically a parole officer into thinking they were truelly sorry for the van thing. I'm sure they knew how to explain to their parents that if was part of a school project, or that it was something benign. I've done similar things, where there i'm working on something I don't want then to know about and accidently leave something in plain view. Always have an explianation.
Now, the parent could be charged with conspiracy thats stupid. the parents had know way of knowing what was going on in the minds of thier kids. If their kids were anything like me.
Then there are the reports of misc lethal stuff lying in plain view in one of the suspects rooms. Do you know how often my parents get into my room when I'm around? Never. if the parents had any respect for the kids, they would rarely set foot in their teenage sons room when he is not around. I'm sure the stuff was lying around cuzs they knew they would never be back.
Also, these kids were smart, look at the reports that they fooled a judge and basically a parole officer into thinking they were truelly sorry for the van thing. I'm sure they knew how to explain to their parents that if was part of a school project, or that it was something benign. I've done similar things, where there i'm working on something I don't want then to know about and accidently leave something in plain view. Always have an explianation.
Now, the parent could be charged with conspiracy thats stupid. the parents had know way of knowing what was going on in the minds of thier kids. If their kids were anything like me.
Mike in VA
New member
While it's in appropriate to kneejerk blame the 'rents, there is clearly a serious 'values gap' and socialization deficit (pardon the hokey psychobable, but -) that is traditionally supposed to be initiated at home. Yeah, the parents are 'responsible' but I can't say how much.
There's enough blame to go around, in any event. parents, school admin/teachers, classmates, cops. Lotsa opportunities for somebody to do something. Hindsight is 20/20?
OTOH, I am of the opinion that it's time to quit calling these self-absorded bastards 'kids'. They're over 18, which means they can vote, join the army, contract for goods & services, etc., and would definitely be tried as adults if they had lived. They're terrorists, of little vision and consequence in the grand scheme of things, but terrorists just the same, and those who helped them should be dealt with accordingly. Actually, if there were any accomplices, they should be dealt with most harshly precisely because this whole mess was so petty and mindless. (they made fun of me so I'm gonna blow 'em up & burn em down???)
The parallel I would draw is this stupid hate crime crapola. Is it any more or less heinous to kill someone because of their status over any other reason (e.g. money)? I understand greed. I also understand hate, it's born of fear and ignorance, but I understand it. We have all hated something sometime, and no doubt had some dark thoughts and desires associated with it. What I don't understand is when some moron pops someone for a pair of sneakers, a jacket, or a boombox. That kind of mindless trivialization of life is maddening and should be given no quarter. Littleton is cut from the same cloth.
I guess what I'm really honked off at is the fact that those booger-eating morons in Washington (and elsewhere) think they can pass 'laws' to fix this mindlessness. Crazies do what crazies do. The Mo'fo's that threw the bombs and pulled teh trigger are responsible. Passing laws to regulate crazies is crazy.
Just effen proud to be a taxpoayer, M2
[This message has been edited by Mike in VA (edited April 27, 1999).]
There's enough blame to go around, in any event. parents, school admin/teachers, classmates, cops. Lotsa opportunities for somebody to do something. Hindsight is 20/20?
OTOH, I am of the opinion that it's time to quit calling these self-absorded bastards 'kids'. They're over 18, which means they can vote, join the army, contract for goods & services, etc., and would definitely be tried as adults if they had lived. They're terrorists, of little vision and consequence in the grand scheme of things, but terrorists just the same, and those who helped them should be dealt with accordingly. Actually, if there were any accomplices, they should be dealt with most harshly precisely because this whole mess was so petty and mindless. (they made fun of me so I'm gonna blow 'em up & burn em down???)
The parallel I would draw is this stupid hate crime crapola. Is it any more or less heinous to kill someone because of their status over any other reason (e.g. money)? I understand greed. I also understand hate, it's born of fear and ignorance, but I understand it. We have all hated something sometime, and no doubt had some dark thoughts and desires associated with it. What I don't understand is when some moron pops someone for a pair of sneakers, a jacket, or a boombox. That kind of mindless trivialization of life is maddening and should be given no quarter. Littleton is cut from the same cloth.
I guess what I'm really honked off at is the fact that those booger-eating morons in Washington (and elsewhere) think they can pass 'laws' to fix this mindlessness. Crazies do what crazies do. The Mo'fo's that threw the bombs and pulled teh trigger are responsible. Passing laws to regulate crazies is crazy.
Just effen proud to be a taxpoayer, M2
[This message has been edited by Mike in VA (edited April 27, 1999).]
Hey Chink - <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>if the parents had any respect for the kids, they would rarely set foot in their teenage sons room when he is not around.[/quote]
It's a good thing you don't live in my household. If my kids want a place where I'll never venture into, then they'll have to find it elsewhere - and with their own dime.
My job as a parent is not to win popularity contests with the rugrats, but to raise them to be able to function independently in society when they reach adulthood. That may sound harsh and unfeeling, but it is the truth. This house belongs to me and my wife. We set the rules here, not my kids. I will not be intimidated into staying out of the rooms that we allow them to use while they are growing up. My kids may grow up to be mass murderers, but the only way I won't see shotgun barrels or bomb-making supplies laying around is if I'm already dead.
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Kelly
Deo Vindice
It's a good thing you don't live in my household. If my kids want a place where I'll never venture into, then they'll have to find it elsewhere - and with their own dime.
My job as a parent is not to win popularity contests with the rugrats, but to raise them to be able to function independently in society when they reach adulthood. That may sound harsh and unfeeling, but it is the truth. This house belongs to me and my wife. We set the rules here, not my kids. I will not be intimidated into staying out of the rooms that we allow them to use while they are growing up. My kids may grow up to be mass murderers, but the only way I won't see shotgun barrels or bomb-making supplies laying around is if I'm already dead.
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Kelly
Deo Vindice
Chink, I'm just about to turn 18 and I know what you mean about pushing parents away. I find myself hiding what I am doing even if it is of no consequence, without realizing it til I've done it.
About seeing guns and stuff in your kids room, I guess it all boils down to how much you trust your kid. In my house my mom is always in my room using the computer, also I always have various rifles and pistols laying out. But she trusts me and knows that I am not gonna do anything like what happened so she doesnt care. Maybe these parents also trusted teir kids and when they saw the stuff they didnt think anything of it.
About seeing guns and stuff in your kids room, I guess it all boils down to how much you trust your kid. In my house my mom is always in my room using the computer, also I always have various rifles and pistols laying out. But she trusts me and knows that I am not gonna do anything like what happened so she doesnt care. Maybe these parents also trusted teir kids and when they saw the stuff they didnt think anything of it.
Senator
your probably right. i still live at home, housing in the Silicon Valley is to expensive for a full-time student/part time worker. I guess I've grown use to the freedom that my parents give me.
But regardless of that. I'll put some down that you don't know everything you kids are into. until we know what the police found laying around, its really hard to judge the parents. i mean if the cops found lengths of pipe sitting on the guys bed, that pretty innocent without hindsight. also, you have to take into account that the suspects never intended to return home. The Dairy and the letter say that if they made it out of the school alive, they had plans to get out of the country.
Striker3,
Happened today, i was looking forsome paper in my room, so I was late of dinner, my moms asked what I was doing, I gave her my normal response, nothing. and when she kept asking it was still nothing. we push and if they pudh back, bw push harder
your probably right. i still live at home, housing in the Silicon Valley is to expensive for a full-time student/part time worker. I guess I've grown use to the freedom that my parents give me.
But regardless of that. I'll put some down that you don't know everything you kids are into. until we know what the police found laying around, its really hard to judge the parents. i mean if the cops found lengths of pipe sitting on the guys bed, that pretty innocent without hindsight. also, you have to take into account that the suspects never intended to return home. The Dairy and the letter say that if they made it out of the school alive, they had plans to get out of the country.
Striker3,
Happened today, i was looking forsome paper in my room, so I was late of dinner, my moms asked what I was doing, I gave her my normal response, nothing. and when she kept asking it was still nothing. we push and if they pudh back, bw push harder
What makes this topic difficult is that there are reasons to believe the parents have known about the possible massacre well in advance, and yet they are blamed for not taking the necessary steps for heading that off.
If the above statement proves to be true, then yes, I think they should bear some of the responsibility. Until then, they don't need the ridicule or blame being heaved on them. I agree that things are bad enough as it is without another witch hunt.
If the above statement proves to be true, then yes, I think they should bear some of the responsibility. Until then, they don't need the ridicule or blame being heaved on them. I agree that things are bad enough as it is without another witch hunt.
I think the parents should have known something was going on and should have looked into it, hard. They are partly responsible to a small degree. But, they didn't kill anybody and now their child is dead. They have no one to blame but themselves because they must be thinking that they failed as parents. Don't you know that they are going to spend the rest of their lives thinking I shoulda, woulda, coulda done something? The shame and guilt they will carry from now on is enough. Leave 'em alone.
Unfortunately, even if the parents do know there doesn't seem to be much they can do about it.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying give up and let the kids go to weeds, but...Remember Kip Kinkel in Oregon. That kid was out of control, his parents knew it and repeatedly asked for help and all the BS social services, police and every other organization that will burn you at the stake if THEY don't like what you do, turned a deaf ear. There is enough legislation and regulations that hamstrings parents....and if they deny a parent help the parent is SOL. It really does appear to me that things are currently constructed that, assuming one has a questionable kid, a parent needs to go on record recognizing that the kid is whacked, and then the parent is protected from liability if said kid leaves them alive when he/she goes off.
Something no one has blamed yet is the unrelenting governmental intrusion. Recall a thread here a few months ago that noted some governmental assistance program/daycare deal that required kids to submit to full unclothed physical exams and one thing being looked for were signs of physical and sexual abuse. My father was a dear wonderful and loving man, but he was also 1st generation American....you don't cross a Sicilian derived father. If you pushed too far or crossed him you got 5 (no more no less) whacks on your bare bottom with his doubled up belt. Hell yes that left marks... in today's climate he'd be arrested
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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes"
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying give up and let the kids go to weeds, but...Remember Kip Kinkel in Oregon. That kid was out of control, his parents knew it and repeatedly asked for help and all the BS social services, police and every other organization that will burn you at the stake if THEY don't like what you do, turned a deaf ear. There is enough legislation and regulations that hamstrings parents....and if they deny a parent help the parent is SOL. It really does appear to me that things are currently constructed that, assuming one has a questionable kid, a parent needs to go on record recognizing that the kid is whacked, and then the parent is protected from liability if said kid leaves them alive when he/she goes off.
Something no one has blamed yet is the unrelenting governmental intrusion. Recall a thread here a few months ago that noted some governmental assistance program/daycare deal that required kids to submit to full unclothed physical exams and one thing being looked for were signs of physical and sexual abuse. My father was a dear wonderful and loving man, but he was also 1st generation American....you don't cross a Sicilian derived father. If you pushed too far or crossed him you got 5 (no more no less) whacks on your bare bottom with his doubled up belt. Hell yes that left marks... in today's climate he'd be arrested
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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes"