Estate taxes??

W

Waterdog

Moderator
Why in the hell do we have estate taxes in this country?. This arcane and oppressive taxation doesn't belong in this time and day.

And please don't tell me it keeps the rich in check, most of those rich folks got at least 2 lawyers in their pockets just to maintain a trust, so they can keep the tax burden on the workin people.

Waterdog
 
The estate tax was originally to pay for our first boats in the newly formed United States Navy. Then after the wars of 1812, between the states, Spanish - American, WWI, and shortly after the big one, they just forgot to remove it. I think that the Estate tax is morally offensive, and so we do our best to get around it. Thank God we have a congress addressing the issue.
 
Estate taxes are pretty much misunderstood. Believe me I know. I`m in the last stages of an estate settlement now. There is no fed tax until the estate reaches a certain amount. $750,000 I think but check with an estate accountant if you`re in this situation. As of 2/1/00 there is no estate tax in NYS. Other states may be different.
Beware of lawyers. Many don`t know the tax laws. In my case the lawyer was going to hold 25% back for "taxes". Not likely. Also, if you`re named executor don`t sign any paperwork giving that power to a lawyer. In my brothers` case when he asked what the executor fee was the lawyer mumbled something about it being "not worth the trouble." 6% of say $100,000 is $6,000. Not bad when added to the lawyers` fee of $6000. Shame on them.
Klinton has said he will veto the repeal bill.
 
If someone believes that the rich pay estate taxes, they are crazy..... with the proper tax planning they pay -0-..... It's called a charitable remander trust, coupled with life insurance. Takes to long to explain how it works, but almost all of those who are rich have been taking advantage of the tax laws so that they don't pay taxes. It is only those who are in the middle who are paying... and if you think that the average person does not reach the limits, then you need to think again. Most of our parents who live in the larger cities and were home owners prior to the 70's fall in this group.



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Richard

The debate is not about guns,
but rather who has the ultimate power to rule,
the People or Government.
RKBA!
 
The mdoern estate tax does not go back to the war of 1812, though the first one was passed as a temporary measure in 1797.

The tax we have now dates from 1916 and was passed to help with WW I. (Will Rogers did a very funny radio program on it in the 1920s.) It is partly designed to prevent rich people from creating a hereditary aristocracy by passing all of their earned wealth down as unearned wealth to their descendants. It's a mixture of social policy and revenue raising, just like any tax. The tax strongly encourages charitable giving.

I've always thought that the amount you can pass down without tax is far too low, and should be several million dollars. When I quit keeping up on the law the credit against taxes covered an exemption of $600,000. I understand it's a little higher now; some states have taxes that kick in at lower levels. With the most basic form of estate planning a married person can pass twice that through to their children tax free.

You're wrong if you don't think rich people sometimes pay taxes, and a lot of it. I've filled out estate tax returns and sent the checks in. Not everyone wants to leave money to charity; not every rich person even has a will. To describe someone with seven hundred thousand dollars in assets as a "middle" sort of person is spin; we're talking 2% or less of the population.

I'm not really defending the tax; I've always been a little ambiguous about it as policy. It does remind rich people in their gated communities and private schools that they have a duty to America. And you only pay on the amount above the limit, not on your whole estate.

I guess the reason I'm hesitant to endorse repeal outright is that I see so much misrepresentation and outright falsehood used by the lobbyists and spin doctors of the rich in the campaign to get it done, and I'm afraid that it will lead the average person to equate conservatism with the rich again, an equation only broken in this country by Ronald Reagan. But they say repeal is very popular even with people with no visible assets, so maybe it will pass.

[This message has been edited by RHC (edited July 16, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by RHC (edited July 16, 2000).]
 
Estate taxes taxes really hurt people who own a lot of land, like farmers. A man with a tree farm may own a couple of million dollars worth of land and make $50,000 a year. When he dies, his family has to sell the land to pay the tax.
 
There is a special loophole just for farmers, called "special use valuation" which holds down taxes for farmers. But you have to promise to keep farming the land, which most people who inherit don't want to do. They want to sell the farm for big bucks and move to Miami Beach.

I think this loophole should be made much bigger and the exemption raised. But this "poor family farm" thing is rare, and is mostly a line of propaganda that the lobbyists have come up with, along the lines of "for the children."
 
The estate taxes are no great deal even if you hate the rich - by the way which seems to be the only justification for them.

Estate taxes do harm capital formation in the country which does hurt the growth rate of the economy, moves assets offshore, not to mention what others have said about the industry of lawyers setting up complex trusts and playing with insurance policies to limit the bite of the tax.

In fact the estate tax has had very high enforcement costs, eating up much of the tax monies. The reason that people are hesitant to stop it is that the government wants to get a big windfall when the seniors who've made money off the stock market croak.
 
RHC opines: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>It does remind rich people in their gated communities and private schools that they have a duty to America.[/quote]
From each according to their ability, to each according to their need.
 
So you feel we owe nothing to our country? Does that include service in war time?

Karl is no buddy of mine.

But it does get a little tiresome to listen to someone educated in public schools, driving on public roads, depending on public police, expecting the public army to defend them, who says they shouldn't have to pay any taxes. It's just as tiresome when it's Chris Rock as when it's Bill Buckley.

[This message has been edited by RHC (edited July 17, 2000).]
 
RHC- People with estates all paid taxes. They paid state and federal income taxes as the money was earned, property taxes as they lived, etc. Therefore, they contributed to schools, roads, funding welfare, and everything else governments spend money for. The irony of our public policy in this area is that our tax law encourages spending your earned income on "stuff" so there will be no tax at death rather than invest and save (so the government can tax it again upon death). Also, as stated earlier in the thread a person can leave the estate to charities and reduce taxes, but why shouldn't a grandparent be able to leave money to educate grandchildren --i.e. blood family descendents--, or care for an invalid son/daughter and receive the same tax treatment as if the estate had been left to a "charity"? BTY, if you want to see a charitable trust and how it avoids taxes for the super rich look into the former owner of the Washington Redskins's estate.
 
I am much oposed to estate taxes. These taxes do not just affect the rich. The current limit for not having to pay is $675,000. That is not rich. There is a way for most people who are not rich to avoid them: The Revocable Living Trust. An AB trust will shelter up to 2 X $675,000 for a couple. It costs about $1500, but it also avoids probate. Probate can be expensive and time consuming. A simple will doesn't prevent probate, at least in most states. In fact it causes it. I'm not a lawyer and the laws in your state will not be the same as mine, maybe. See a lawyer who specializes in trusts. It is worth the money. Jerry

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Ecclesiastes 12:13  ¶Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14  For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
 
RHC,
I guess I have to say I disagree with almost all your arguments. Yes I was educated in Public Schools, but first, I was forced to go, I didn't go of my own free will. Second, I received a poor education. Third, it wasn't free, my parents shelled out dinero for public schooling through taxation. Fourth, the crappy public schooling system has acted like a cartel to eliminate a superior private school system which would exist in the absence of public schooling.

I don't depend on the public police, in fact they markedly reduce my safety by making threats against me if I wanted to carry the means of my own protection. My only interaction with the police my whole life has been to hassle me for absurd things, "you aren't wearing a seatbelt." I've only had a pistol shoved in my face one time in my life, by the police, for the crime of sitting in my car.

In my life the US army has protected almost everyone around the world except me. Not only did they draft relatives to go off and die in Vietnam, they used my tax money to send troops to Yugoslavia, Somalia, Haiti, Panama, etc. All which had nothing at all to do with protecting me.

And last of all the Politicians who steal money from me don't even make an effort at obeying the oaths to uphold the Constitution, which they voluntarily take.

Sorry for this rant but I guess I'm more than a little bit ticked off. I've never taken an oath to uphold the Constitution, but our rulers have. If they don't uphold that oath they aren't honorable men and I owe them no allegiance whatsoever.
 
The right to own $2 comes from the right to own $1.

I just can't figure out RKBA marxists. If you can't own a loaf of bread and have it belong to you and not the govt, how the he** can you own a gun?


Battler.
 
I will again address the sickness that is this Estate tax, and that of its supporters in govt.


Klinton quote on how he would repeal it:

"Its costs would explode to $750 billion after 10 years, and every year fully half its benefits would go to just 3,000 families," Clinton said.

What benefits? The government is taking their property under threat of force?

So I guess the moral is, if a law only fu**s a few thousand people it's okay?

Well, see the "we should ban guns because most of them are owned in the large collections of shi**y white middle class rural males" thread.


Battler.
 
RHC, your 'duty' comment rubbed me the wrong way as well, and I was going to ignore it ...

I pay federal income taxes, state income taxes, social security taxes, real property taxes (home and other real property), personal property taxes (auto license fees), sales taxes, gasoline taxes, various excise taxes ... and perhaps, someday, estate and gift taxes. This ignores the taxes I pay which are implicit in the cost of goods and services I purchase. [Friends, add up all the taxes you pay ... from each category. You'll be surprised.]

Is my 'duty' better satisfied the more taxes I pay?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>'I'm proud to be an American. I'm proud to be paying taxes in the United States. The only thing is ... I could be just as proud at half the cost.'
-- Arthur Godfrey[/quote]

The very 'rich' targets of the estate and gift taxes do generally escape the bulk of these taxes ... the law simply forces them to adopt ingenious and expensive legal schemes. Those in the middle class who are fortunate enough to own appreciated real estate, IRA's and 401(k)'s ... well, they get stuck. As do small business owners. These taxes should go, but a Democrat will never sign the law ... it is simply too handy to use as part of their class warfare tactic.

Regards from AZ
 
RHC, your 'duty' comment rubbed me the wrong way as well, and I was going to ignore it ...

I pay federal income taxes, state income taxes, social security taxes, real property taxes (home and other real property), personal property taxes (auto license fees), sales taxes, gasoline taxes, various excise taxes ... and perhaps, someday, estate and gift taxes. This ignores the taxes I pay which are implicit in the cost of goods and services I purchase. [Friends, add up all the taxes you pay ... from each category. You'll be surprised.]

Is my 'duty' better satisfied the more taxes I pay?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>'I'm proud to be an American. I'm proud to be paying taxes in the United States. The only thing is ... I could be just as proud at half the cost.'
-- Arthur Godfrey[/quote]

The very 'rich' targets of the estate and gift taxes do generally escape the bulk of these taxes ... the law simply forces them to adopt ingenious and expensive legal schemes. Those in the middle class who are fortunate enough to own appreciated real estate, IRA's and 401(k)'s ... well, they get stuck. As do small business owners. These taxes should go, but a Democrat will never sign the law ... it is simply too handy to use as part of their class warfare tactic.

Regards from AZ
 
RHC, your 'duty' comment rubbed me the wrong way as well, and I was going to ignore it ...

I pay federal income taxes, state income taxes, social security taxes, real property taxes (home and other real property), personal property taxes (auto license fees), sales taxes, gasoline taxes, various excise taxes ... and perhaps, someday, estate and gift taxes. This ignores the taxes I pay which are implicit in the cost of goods and services I purchase. [Friends, add up all the taxes you pay ... from each category. You'll be surprised.]

Is my 'duty' better satisfied the more taxes I pay?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>'I'm proud to be an American. I'm proud to be paying taxes in the United States. The only thing is ... I could be just as proud at half the cost.'
-- Arthur Godfrey[/quote]

The very 'rich' targets of the estate and gift taxes do generally escape the bulk of these taxes ... the law simply forces them to adopt ingenious and expensive legal schemes. Those in the middle class who are fortunate enough to own appreciated real estate, IRA's and 401(k)'s ... well, they get stuck. As do small business owners. These taxes should go, but a Democrat will never sign the law ... it is simply too handy to use as part of their class warfare tactic.

Regards from AZ
 
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