equal accuracy ?

R

rebs

New member
If you have two loads that are equally accurate with the same bullet, one load being 24.0 grains of powder and the other being 25.3 grains of the same powder which would you load ?
Would the hotter load be better for ranges out to 300 yds with less bullet drop ? Woulod the hotter load be more accurate at longer ranges than the light load ?
 
Try both at 200 or 300 or 600 and see what happens
and go with the load that gives a better pattern
The need to add more elevation to the one load is no
reason to disregard it
 
What is more important to you?

Barrel life, PBR, on target energy, or something else?

I don't pick any load based on 100 yard groups. I have to see what it does at some distance beyond my maximum intended use.

For instance, on my .243 hunting loads, I shoot them for groups at 700 yards, but only will shoot game to 600. My .223 Match loads, I shoot groups to 750, but don't intend to shoot them past 650 in matches. My 9mm pistol loads, I shoot at 100 yards, but almost never shoot them past 70 yards. Black powder and rifled slugs, shoot to 300, limit back to 200. I could list more, but you see the trend I am sure.

Elevation holds are easy, wind holds are a little more tricky. On target energy and group size, for almost all calibers I shoot, are what limit the distance of engagement. Usually, that means longer, higher BC bullets for cartridges with large primers. Sometimes that means the highest velocity that will still group at distance with cartridges with small rifle primers.
 
If accuracy was my number criteria I would go with the lower pressure load. I test loads on the bench, at the range, and evaluate the best I can for pressure signs. Many times during matches, loads that appeared perfectly safe gave pressure problems later.

I am a big believer in "cut the loads". If your load does what you want, pick the lower pressure load over the higher pressure load.

Don't be surprised if you have to cut that load sometime in the future. ;)
 
If you have two loads that are equally accurate with the same bullet, one load being 24.0 grains of powder and the other being 25.3 grains of the same powder which would you load ?
Would the hotter load be better for ranges out to 300 yds with less bullet drop ? Woulod the hotter load be more accurate at longer ranges than the light load ?
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I am sorry but I don't get it. To say two loads equally accurate implies the loads group the same at all ranges. Thus equally accurate. Then we come along and say would the hotter load be better for ranges out to 300 yards? If the loads are equally accurate and you are just shooting paper I am going with the lighter load. Shoot both loads at 300 and see if they group the same and where they group.

Would the hotter load be more accurate at longer ranges than the light load?
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We already said the loads were equally accurate. The problem here is the use of the word equal or equally. Maybe equal at 100 yards? Equal at 200 yards? I think we need to fix a value to equal as to distance. That said the only way to get an answer would be to shoot the loads at various distances out to some defined limit. That is how I see it anyway.

Ron
 
the two loads are equally accurate at 100 yds, I have not tried them at longer range.
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OK, then you will need to stretch things out. I would bet the heavier load will win but that is not always the case. I have loads group well at the 100 yard line and really open up at 300 or more yards.

Ron
 
It depends on the bullet. A 55gr bullet isn't going to be much fun to shoot at long ranges through the wind no matter how much powder is behind it, so I'd go with the lower charge weight for that. A 75gr match bullet on the other hand might benefit from a higher initial velocity.

So it kind of depends on what bullet you are using, and what you plan on using it for.

Jimro
 
rebs, I sent you an email, did you receive it?

I also asked you if you knew what your were looking for in the way of reloading and components.

F. Guffey
 
If you have two loads that are equally accurate with the same bullet, one load being 24.0 grains of powder and the other being 25.3 grains of the same powder which would you load ?
Click to expand...

Do a ladder test, you might find that 24.0 and 25.3 happen to be both ends of the "sweet spot". If that were the case I would go for 24.65 grains.
 
I build a rifle and then load 120 rounds using different cases and head stamps, bullets and powder, That gives me 12 different loads of 10 rounds each. Different head stamps allows me to tumble the cases to and sorting after.

120 rounds through one rifle takes time, at the end of the day I have multiple groups but I do not have groups that look like shotgun patters, the groups move but do not open up and I do not have unexplained holes called flyers.

And then I purchase a new rifle; Same ammo, same shooter and the best that can be accomplished looks more like shotgun patters. So I venture over to a very disciplined reloader after leaving the range. He works his magic and we return to the range for the same $10.00. Now we have the same rifle with ammo loaded by a different loader and shooter, same old stuff, no groups just patterns.

I sent the rifle back, we had words, that was 16 years ago, I dug the rifle out 2 months ago and started reloading for it again, first I had to repair the rifle.

I loaded 100 rounds for the 300 Win Mag and then my son came for a visit; I gave the 100 rounds to him for one of the most accurate 300 Win Mag rifle I have ever seen. It only took 70 rounds to get that rifle to shoot one hole groups.

F. Guffey
 
It depends

Nothing is ever that simple. The answer always depends on a number of factors.
But the best answer seems to be, that for hunting loads where bullet performance when entering solid mediums matters and knock down power, go with the highest yet safe pressure, provided it is accurate out to the distances you intend to hunt.

If you are punching paper or ringing steels, knockdown power and bullet performance with respect to wounds are irrelevant. So choose the lightest load that is accurate to your chosen distance which will reduce felt recoil, increase barrel life, save money on powder and perform just as well.

However, it has been my experience that there really is only one "Best" charge weight giving best terminal ballistics and short range accuracy.
 
I always hand load to at least the speed I'd get with typical factory loads. For example most factory 308/150 gr loads are going to be around 2800 fps. If I can't get good accuracy at 2800+ fps I try another combo and would prefer my hand loads beat factory speeds. I've never found any problems with finding a listed load that wouldn't do so with most cartridges. My 308/150 gr loads run about 2880 fps.

I know some guys that list their 308/150 gr loads running 2650-2700 fps. I've never understood why.

Long story short, as long as the faster load is within the specs listed in your manual, shows no pressure signs, and meets the accuracy requirements then it is a no-brainer, speed kills.

I'm a hunter 1st, not a guy interested in tiny groups. If you look at test data a rifle that shoots 1 MOA off a bench is 97-98% as accurate at 500 yards fired from field positions as a rifle that shoots 1/2 MOA off a bench. I wouldn't give up 100 fps to turn a 1 MOA rifle into a .8 MOA rifle. Now, if your goal is only to punch holes in paper, then you don't need the speed.
 
I know some guys that list their 308/150 gr loads running 2650-2700 fps. I've never understood why.

Long story short, as long as the faster load is within the specs listed in your manual, shows no pressure signs, and meets the accuracy requirements then it is a no-brainer, speed kills.
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Allow me to explain. Accuracy kills. Accuracy is the most important factor in lethality, followed by penetration and wound channel size. As long as all three are adequate, the animal will die.

That is why many people are happy with 2650-2700 fps 150gr loads from a 308. No point in wasting powder on the extra 100-150 fps that doesn't matter to the animal. Because "dead" is dead, and going faster doesn't kill 'em deader.

Once a bullet leaves the muzzle, it immediately gets to slowing down. Comparing a 150gr Hornady Spire Point bullet at 2800 and 2650 fps makes it pretty clear that increased velocity isn't always a huge advantage. The slower round maintains over 1000 ft/lbs of energy to 390 yards, the faster to 440 yards, making the case that the extra 150fps velocity only translates into an extra 50 yards on the back end of ethical hunting power levels, although way beyond most hunters ethical shooting ability.

In terms of a "max point blank range" where a hunter can hold and shoot, the 2650fps load is good to a cool 300 yards. The faster 2800 fps load is good to 320 yards. That isn't a very significant difference in performance, both loads are good well past the range most animals are taken.

But if you like your loads to shoot faster, there is nothing wrong with that, but I don't see a benefit until you are hunting at ranges that I find unethical, so I don't mind saving a little bit of powder and going with an adequate hunting load rather than the fastest I can push the bullet.

Jimro
 
It's also the case that the standard test barrels are 24", but a lot of folks have shorter barrels than that and list the velocity they are actually getting. Another source of confusion comes from military loads that were measured at 78 ft from the muzzle rather than SAAMI's standard 15 ft. For example, you see military 30 cal match ammo listed as 2640 fps, but at 78 feet in standard atmospheric conditions it has already lost about 45 fps from what it's 15 foot reading would be. So SAAMI would call it 2685 fps where the military calls it 2640 fps, and they're both right. All the definitions and conditions have to line up to be comparing apples to apples.

In general, I think Randolf Constantine got it right when he recommended 300 yards for Auddette ladders. Bullet drop and wind deflection (both in inches, not MOA) for the above match load are just about 10 times greater at 300 than at 100, so stringing and spread are a lot easier to identify. As range gets longer, wind reading skills or firing at times of day when there is either no wind or a very steady wind become much more important.

One place I think long range testing can be eye opening is that some bullets, like the 168 grain match bullets, can start to tumble in the transonic velocity range, and you need something like 700 yards minimum to begin to see that. You don't ever want to use a load on game at a range beyond one that you tested with success. But just for identifying a tuned load, 300 yards will generally do, and then it's up to you to confirm that it holds up further out. Usually, if the ballistic tables show it stays above 1500 fps all the way to your target range, it will turn out to be OK on accuracy. As you get below 1500 fps, some bullets start to get squirrely. The 168 grain match bullets with 13° boattails start getting troublesome at about 1400 fps, IME.
 
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