Engineering difference between S&W 10 and 19

RX-79G

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Did a search, couldn't find the answer:

Knowing that a Model 19 is only built for limited .357 use, not extended use, and that the 19 and 10 have some physical differences in the way the cylinder is machined, could someone please summarize how a later 10 (stamped crane) and 19 are different in their actual ability to tolerate recoil and pressure?

I have a 1960s NYPD heavy barrel 10. I have no interest in handloading magnums or even in shooting much +P, but I am curious what metallurgy and mechanical differences, if any, make the 19 able to deal with .357 energies more than the 10, or if it really isn't different outside of chambering.

Thanks!
 
"Knowing that a Model 19 is only built for limited .357 use, not extended use..."

I do not know that. Comes as a surprise to my 1970 19-3 which has never been fired with anything other than full power 357 Magnum ammo.

The 357 Magnum was engineered to handle 35,000 PSI 357 Magnum ammo with a tempered cylinder designed for the higher pressure. Not sure if any frame modifications were made.

The 38 Special was engineered to handle 21,500 PSI 38 Special ammo. The cylinder lacks the special tempering of the Magnum but will still handle 21,500 PSI ammo all day and all night. Factory +P does not exceed 20,000 PSI.
 
Howdy

Not sure if I agree with your assessment that the Model 19 is only good for limited use of 357 Mag ammo. But that has been debated endlessly.

According to Roy Jinks in his History of Smith and Wesson, in 1954 S&W president Carl Helstrom approached Bill Jordan and asked him what he considered to be the ideal law enforcement officer's handgun. Jordan was of the opinion that the N frame 357 Magnum, later known as the Model 27, was too heavy for daily carry. Jordan suggested a gun built on the K frame, with a heavy 4" barrel, and an extractor shroud similar to the one on the N frame gun, target sights, target grips, and chambered for 357 Magnum.

Helstrom took these ideas back to the factory and set his engineers to work. Up to that time, the 357 Mag had only been chambered in large frame revolvers. Jinks states that throughout 1954 and into 1955 various steels and heat treatment processes were tried.

So I think the answer to your question is the heat treatment used on the cylinder was different in the Model 19 than the Model 10.

Also, according to The Standard Catalog of S&W by Supica and Nahas, the frame for the Model 19 is 'slightly larger than a standard K frame in the yoke area.'

When I get a chance I'll get out my Model 19 and see how the yoke area of the frame measures compared to a standard Model 10.
 
I don't own or really care how much .357 a 19 is good for - I was just forestalling that eventual discussion in this thread since many people DO believe that the move into a K frame was not done with the same life expectations as the N frames the caliber started in.

The metallurgy and yoke differences are noted. Thank you!
 
Driftwood Johnson said:
Also, according to The Standard Catalog of S&W by Supica and Nahas, the frame for the Model 19 is 'slightly larger than a standard K frame in the yoke area.
This is actually true of almost all postwar K frame Smiths with adjustable rear sights; they're built on the so-called "K Target" frame, which is larger than the fixed-sight frame through the barrel-frame interface, in addition to having a wider and flatter topstrap grooved for the rear sight base. The Model 19 entry in the SCSW is confusingly worded in this regard. (The factory has some other internal designation for the Target frame, R frame or something, but only the most diehard of Smith nerds worry about this. ;))

OTOH the 4"HB M10 actually WAS marketed in a .357Mag version, albeit very briefly, right before the introduction of the M13- which is basically the same gun, both with the standard rounded fixed-sight frame. OTOH both suppposedly had the purported magic cylinder heat-treatment mojo. :)
 
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Given the standard (typical?) practices involved in volume production... does it make a lot of sense that Smith & Wesson would use two different process (heat treating) for the very similar cylinders between the 10s and 19s?

Is there any "official" word, or even some suggestions from inside the plant, or anything other than GUESSING that might tell us that the Model 10 cylinders (and Model 14, 15, 64... other K-38 cylinders) aren't also produced and thus heat-treated just the same way as the Model 13, 19, 65, 66 and other K-frame .357 Magnum cylinders?

I have heard it said (not in this forum) that modern K-frame .38 cylinders are produced and spec'd exactly the same way as the modern .357 Magnum cylinders. I have -NO- citation or proof of that, none.

Personally, I find it interesting and I'd love to see something that amounts to more than "no they don't..." or "yes they do..."

I'm not sure Smith & Wesson would answer that question, to a man, because it seems like a loaded question. It could easily be construed as asking S&W if you can overload their .38 cylinders because you'd hope/assume they are fully prepared to take "proof loads" constructed to test .357 Magnum ammo.

I'd definitely be interested in hearing the real answer. And much less interested in hearing an argument of what may or may not be accurate. (although that can be interesting also)
 
Given the standard (typical?) practices involved in volume production... does it make a lot of sense that Smith & Wesson would use two different process (heat treating) for the very similar cylinders between the 10s and 19s?

Stevens, interesting point. Do remember that the M-19 cylinders were recessed, which I assume was done before final heat treating, so different styles of K frame cylinders were produced by the factory.
 
A different heat treatment may mean a different steel. Or it may mean one fewer trips to the furnace.

More complicated heat treatments do take longer and involve more prep, so it is possible that they kept the standard heat treat used on other parts for the 10 cylinders and used a more specialized process for the 19 cylinders.

So, I could really see either possibility.
 
The L frames were designed after many problems with police officers having K frame 357's shoot loose during the 1970's. When the change from 38 to 357 first came about the rational was to practice with cheaper 38's and carry 357's for duty. This proved to be a mistake when officers found they were not prepared for the greater recoil and blast of the 357. When training started requiring practice with the same loads they carried many guns started having problems with a steady diet of hotter loads. Seems that the SS models were having more problems than the blued guns IIRC.

Smith did change a few things to beef up the 19 and 66. Not sure exactly what or when, but newer K frame 357's were less problematic than early versions.
 
The problem the Model 19 had with some .357 loads was not due to the cylinder or frame but with the forcing cone cracking. The Model 19 has the same size forcing cone as the K-38, which is .500".

But the forcing cone on the K-frame can't be enlarged without enlarging the barrel hole in the frame, and that would weaken the frame as well as cutting into the crane area. So S&W went to the L frame, which allowed them to expand the forcing cone to .525" which is adequate, while keeping to a minimum the increase in overall weight.

The frame change also meant they had to enlarge the cylinder, which made that stronger as well, but that was not the reason for the change. (FWIW, the N frame forcing cone is .629", a lot bigger and stronger.)

Jim
 
In the past the 357 training was to train with 38 spec and carry 357. That left cops not very qualified to shoot 357 on the street as was shown in shootouts ! Anyway that meant 10 % 357, 90 % 38 spec. Then training became 357 also. 100 % 357 was too much for the K frame .Then they developed the L frame.
But that was a moot point because they changed to autos when BGs out shot them with autos !
That all clear ? :D
 
The most obvious differences are as follows:

The M19 was only offered with adjustable sights while the M10 was offered with fixed sights only. The M19 was available only in .357 Magnum while the M10, with the exception of a small run prior to the M13's introduction, was available only in .38 Special. The M19's standard barrel lengths were 2 1/2", 4", and 6" while the M10 was offered at various times in 2", 3", 4", 5", and 6" lengths (small runs of other barrel lengths may have also been offered for both models). The M19 also had a longer magnum-length cylinder (longer in fact than the N-Frame M27 or M28) while the M10 for most of it's production run has had the shorter .38 Special-length cylinder (more recent examples may have longer cylinders). The M19 was made only with heavy, half-lug barrels while the M10 was available with both heavy and tapered barrels but not ejector rod shroud. Also, on 19-4 and older guns, the cylinder was recessed while the M10 has never been offered with a recessed cylinder.

Similarities between the two models are that both are K-Frames, both were carbon steel and available in either blue or nickel finish and both were available with either square-butt or round-butt grip frames depending on the barrel length and vintage.

Really, the M19 was based upon, and is more similar to, the M14 and M15 than the M10. The true .357 Magnum version of the M10 would be the M13 which differs only in its chambering, cylinder length, and range of barrel lengths and styles offered (the M13 was available, AFAIK, only with a 3" or 4" heavy barrel). Indeed, it takes a very keen eye to tell the difference between a M13 and a heavy-barrel M10 of the same barrel length without looking at the markings.

Also, while newer S&W .38 Specials may or may not be heat treated the same as the .357 Magnums, the older ones most certainly were not. I rather doubt that S&W would confirm that newer guns are heat treated the same as that would almost invite some idiot to attempt to shoot overloaded ammunition and blow up a gun. While I know you have no interest in doing so, it is worth mentioning for the benefit of whoever else may read this thread that under no circumstances should one attempt to rechamber a M10 to .357 Magnum or load .38 Special ammunition beyond SAAMI .38 Special +P limits for use in a M10.

Finally, as to the M19 or other .357 K-Frame (Models 13, 65, and 66) digesting a steady diet of Magnum ammo, it depends what sort of Magnums you're shooting. As has been mentioned, the problem area of K-Frame magnums is the forcing cone. In order to clear the yoke, the forcing cone of a K-Frame with a one-piece barrel has to have a flat spot ground onto its outside at the six o'clock position making it quite thin in that area (this is a trait unique among S&W frame sizes). This isn't really a problem with .38 Special ammo or .357 Magnum ammo with bullets over 140gr (158gr is the standard weight for .357 Magnum and pretty much all that was available in the 1950's when the original Combat Magnum was introduced).

The problems came in the 1970's and 1980's when lighter, faster 110-125gr bullets became popular in .357 Magnum. These loadings, if used in large quantities, are known to erode and eventually crack the forcing cones of K-Frames in the thin six o'clock position. The reason for this is fairly complicated but, in a nutshell, the combination of lighter, shorter bullets and larger amounts of slow-burning powder means that the bullet leaves the case when a smaller proportion of the powder has been burned and that it it does not completely "seal" the chamber throat. This means that extremely hot gas and burning powder can flow around the bullet and into the forcing cone thus causing accelerated wear. A better, more detailed description and explanation can be found in the following article.

http://www.gunblast.com/Butch_MagnumLoads.htm

The primary difference between the K-Frame and the L-Frame is that the L-Frame is slightly taller and thus has a taller frame window. This allowed the use not only of a thicker forcing cone, but also one which didn't need a flat spot at the six o'clock position. It is also worth mentioning that J-Frames don't have the same forcing cone problems as K-Frames even though they're smaller and have even thinner forcing cones. This is because J-Frame forcing cones don't have a flat spot and because they don't protrude as far into the frame window and are thus better supported by the frame itself.

So basically, K-Frame Magnums can be quite durable if shot with .357 Magnum ammo using heavier bullets at more moderate velocities. If, however, one insists on shooting light bullets at high velocity, then a K-Frame is more likely to have issues than other S&W .357 Magnums.
 
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