Enforcing Laws & Fred

G

Gunslinger

Moderator
We have had few discussions here concerning the wisdom of our (RKBA supporters) insisting that the existing laws be enforced and not implementing new gun laws. With the growing number of gun laws that restrict our rights there are many on the books that are unconstitutional and should not be law, much less enforced. One of the laws that most RKBA supporters do endorse however is the prohibition of convicted felons from possessing firearms.
This past weekend I met a gentleman at the gun show selling leather goods. Quality leather at very reasonable prices. We will call him Fred. Fred was an engaging man. Very articulate, educated and well spoken. He embraced many of the ideals and philosophies that we do here at TFL. In fact many of the phrases and comments he made during our converstions over the weekend reminded me very much of remarks I have heard from members here. Fred is extremely astute and aware of the politics that govern this country. He is very pro-constitution and shares our love of firearms. Fred loves guns both for their beauty and for the protection they offer individuals. However Fred differs from us in a couple of ways. He does not own a gun. At least he does not officlally own a gun. Not because he does not want to. Not because he can not afford a gun nor even a collection. Which brings us to the other difference between Fred and we here at TFL. Fred is a felon. By law he is not allowed to own a gun. He has a wife, kids and family that needs protection the same as most of us here. Fred's business requires that he carry rather large sums of money at odd hours in less than ideal neighborhoods on ocassion. But, according to the governement, Fred is not safe to have a gun to protect himself. Or rather I should say the government feels we, the public, are not safe if Fred has a gun. We are protected being from Fred. What was Fred's heiniuos crime? Murder? Rape? Robbery? Any crime of violance that should make us fear him and not wish to see him armed? No. Fred did not pay all of his income tax.
Now for the purposes of this converstation let us just assume for the moment that not paying ones taxes is a bad thing. Let us assume that it is a felony that should be pursued. We will not discuss the issues of whether taxation is legal or not. (I know that point is an issue with many here.) Let's assume that failure to pay taxes is a felony and one should have the book thrown at them for failing to comly. Does that make one a threat to society?
I gave Fred the TFL URL and invited him here to join us. I think he will be an asset to our Internet community. But if Fred does join us, please, don't ask Fred if he has a gun. You see offically by law he would have to say no.

------------------
Gunslinger
 
I hope he does join with us. Sounds like a good man to have on board. Only problem is: If he joins in-how will we know unless he posts as "Fred"? :D

My dad is in a similar situation. However, he actually shot someone. Was an accidental shooting in a passion/moment thing. [[found his golddigging GF in the back seat of a car with another guy. Being a Nam vet and also being that he is a hell of a shot, one of the two in the car catching a ricochet thru the arm, I'd consider accidental] Anyway...he shot someone. Can no longer own a gun. Was it a violent crime? Yes. Should he NOW own a gun? I dunno.

However, he is still progun and a great man in my eyes. I guess I'm thinking-it's the type of crime stupid!

So come on 'Fred'...jump right in!
 
I believe It was G. Gordon Liddy who said
"My wife has an extensive firearms collection, some of which are kept on my side of the bed."

Liddy: one of my favorite felons.

------------------
Big Guns again
No speakee well
But plain.
--H.C
 
We are at war.

We are at war with the anti-RKBA, anti-Constitution, and anti-America factions of our own country.

This war will be a bloody one. There will be many early casualties. These early casualties will fall, many of them, simply because they did not have proper support, they did not have a coheisive force behind them. They are not unique in that there are always early casualties in war.

Fred is an early casualty. He is because he has been eliviated of his rights due to this war, he has been deemed unfit for participation. He has been forced to surrender his rights under the rules of war of which we are now dealing with (the cry to, "simply enforce the current laws".) Fred has fallen because he does not have the proper support from the rest of us, and the rest of the country.

I am an early casualty. I am a resident of Massachusetts. I can no longer purchase a Glock. Soon, i will no longer be able to purchase an AR-15 (we all know it is coming.) There are 185,000 of us in Massachusetts whom are early casualties. We have fallen because we do not have the support of the rest of our fellow Massachusetts citizens.

The end will come, but it will take many more of us early casualties to awaken the mighty sword of liberty.

We must continue to clamor for the enforcement of current law. We must, because only then can we show that they are opressive and should be repealed. Otherwise these laws will stick around, obscurely, until some touch-hole DA or AG decides to enforce them, selectively.

Fred, I'm with you man. I'm sorry we have to be treated like this, but i don't see another way.

------------------

~USP

"[Even if there would be] few tears shed if and when the Second Amendment is held to guarantee nothing more than the state National Guard, this would simply show that the Founders were right when they feared that some future generation might wish to abandon liberties that they considered essential, and so sought to protect those liberties in a Bill of Rights. We may tolerate the abridgement of property rights and the elimination of a right to bear arms; but we should not pretend that these are not reductions of rights." -- Justice Scalia 1998
 
Fred didn't pay his taxes!! And now he wants to own a gun!! Why that dirty SOB, doesn't he know his place!!

(Sorry, for a moment there I was Channeling King George III ;) Damn these psychic powers!)
 
Hmm, you mean to tell me that a FELON might come to TFL and use MY name?? Oh, the horror of it all!! :rolleyes: :eek:

------------------
Regards - AZFred
 
I cannot speak for all states, but in Arizona, a convicted felon who has served out his sentence may petition the court to have his civil rights restored. Once the court does this, he may own a firearm just like everybody else. (There was a case that went all the way to the Supreme Court on this very matter, and was incorporated into the Firearms Owners Protection Act of 1986.
You can check this out with your friendly BATF agent.)
However, Fred's crime was Federal, and as far as I can find out, no Federal felon has ever had his civil rights restored.
Seems kind of unfair, considering how many non-violent crimes are Federal felonies.
I got most of this info from my neighbor who was convicted of a felony, served his time, and had his rights restored. I testified on his behalf as a character witness.
Paul B.
 
Yeah, one of my uncles was convicted of Federal Misprison of a Felony, a sort of "fail to snitch" law. Damn shame to punish a man for life.
 
Tough call. Felons and guns. At the least, the type of crime should be of more import than wheter it's a felony or misdemeanor. Of course, the anti- culture has given us this whole mess. If more folk owned, and were comfortable owning and using, guns, guns in the hands of felons wouldn't be nearly as serious a threat (i.e., victims that shoot back, well, aren't victims). And BTW, aside from career criminals who shouldn't have been released to begin with, just how severe a problem is felons owning guns?

------------------
"...and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
Luke 22:36
"An armed society is a polite society."
Robert Heinlein
"Power corrupts. Absolute power - is kinda cool!"
Fred Reed
 
This is a long story. In high school, my brother-in-law (we'll call him Rick, since that's his name) made the mistake of being involved in a robbery (he drove the get-away car for guys stealing sheets from a motel - they were going to have a toga party). They didn't get caught, but one of the guys conscience started bothering him later and he told his parents, who made him go to the police and confess. The other participants, fearing arrest, also turned themselves in. Because these guys were all above average students, had never been in trouble before, and were only involved in a prank (not like knocking over a liquor store), the judge gave them one years probation and expunged their records when they didn't get in any more trouble.

Expunged means expunged, right? Wrong. When the case was expunged, Rick was told by the judge that he could legally state that he had never been convicted of a felony. Rick went on to become a CPA, an upstanding member of the community, and an avid gun collector (always filling out the yellow sheet as a non-felon).

20 years later, Arkansas passes the concealed weapon law. Rick applies and this "expunged" felony shows up on the background check. His application is turned down because expungement of a felony doesn't apply to gun ownership. Which means that all the gun purchases he had made over the years were illegal. I give credit to the Arkansas State Police for not pursuing this.

Rick had thought for all these years that expunged meant expunged. He was shocked and a bit paranoid to find out it didn't. (I almost inherited a fine gun collection at that time.) With a clear record for twenty years and letters of recommendation from the local sheriff and state representitive, Rick petitioned the governor for a pardon and received it. The pardon specifically gave him back the right of gun ownership (which he had requested).

Rick's story is an example of a regular guy having to pay for a mistake he made twenty years before. I fell sorry for him and others that find themselves in similar situations. However, I believe these stories are the exception to the rule. The vast majority of felons should not own guns.

All laws limit individual freedom in order to insure a civilized society. Thank God that the authors of the Constitution saw fit to include the Second Amendment, so that our freedom to own firearms is protected, at least in part, from government interference. If it weren't for the Second Amendment "The Firing Line" wouldn't exist because none of us would own guns that we wanted to talk about.
 
The problem with the felon gun deal is it punishes people who got DUI where there was a accident involved ( we've all had three beers and drove at some point before, which is all it takes, and you don't even have to be responsable for the accident for this to apply ), fishing crap, hunting crap, tax stuff, defend yourself and you could end up with felony assault, felony trespass ( a easy one to get if your out plinking and don't watch where you're going, especially now that furher sam owns all of the land ), felony possession marijuana, etc etc years ago, did their time and are out and besides, a convicted felon going out to commit another felony hardly is going to care if he isn't allowed to posess that stolen gun he will be using during the next robbery he commits. In essence it would only punish the felons who are really no threat because they are the only ones who will obey it to begin with.

We had a incident here in tampa where a older black guy that lived in a crappy neighborhood used a pistol to shoot a armed robber that broke into his house at night. Just so happened he had a felony on his record from 20 years ago so they hauled him off to jail as soon as they found out. That just isn't right, he obviously was doing nothing but defending himself. Once he served his sentance he should have been free, no if ands or buts about it. Oh yea, on the plus side the entire white / black community supported him, don't know what came of it though.

Legal carry for everybody would solve the need for the felon gun laws.



[This message has been edited by scud (edited July 12, 2000).]
 
The other problem is that it is FOR LIFE. What if you beat a guy sensless because he was picking on your girlfriend when you were 20. Does it make sense to deny you a gun when you're 60?
 
Remember, it's not just felonies that bar you from owning guns for life. Paying taxes, that's one that I don't understand, I thought taxes were voluntary according to the law... well, I guess I am thinking wrongly. As for Rights and felons, not all rights are removed. Just the 2nd and the right to vote. All others are still protected under the BoR's. My question is why aren't all rights removed? According to the law, you have no rights if your a felon but the courts still uphold the 5th and 10th as well as others. Me personally, I don't see the harm in not paying taxes, it's voluntary right?, or even having drugs for personal use. So called victemless crimes where the only people getting shorted are the drug users and the guberment. Now, as for victem crimes, there would be less of those if we had more people armed. Why, because the criminals would be killed off sooner or later. As for people that get screwed under "felony" laws such as trespassing (when no signs are present) or if they make a simple mistake in life. We should give a second chance. It's those who are second or third timers that you can deem "too stupid" to be an American and have it's benefits. They are habitual and will continue their life style. I've met many a "felon" who have worked their as$es off to become someone you can and do trust. But, they aren't allowed to enjoy some Rights but are still able to enjoy others. To me it's all or none and if you prove yourself, then you should be given a second chance. Heck, how many of these career felones have asked themselves: "I work my butt off but can't get that second chance.. so F@#$ it, I ain't trying no more"? You may have screwed up in your 20's, matured in your 30's, and now wish to enjoy being an American. Only told that you can't because you're a "threat" to society. They haven't been a threat for over 10/20 years but now they are told that you're allowed to live here but can't have the same basic rights as others. That in itself would give me an attitude, to just say F it and continue to do crime. Hey, it's expected on me to be a BG so why don't I act it! If you don't give some sort of HOPE to a person, then that person will think it's hopeless. I bet that if half the prison population was told, "If you do well, educate yourself, and become a good citizen for the next 10 years, then you will again be a FREE American with all your Rights restored", then they would make an effort to do better. Sure, those who should never be able to vote or have a gun will show themselves but then we would have a better idea of who they are. Everyone has experimented, not everyone has been caught. This is (was) America where you experimented with things like drugs, making that sawed-off shotgun which you promply destroyed, taken that drive when you knew you may have had too much, and even experimented with sex which may have been against the law in the state you were in. This is (was) America! Where we learn from our mistakes (most of us) and we deserve a second chance. Politicians, the local PTA, the neighbor next door doesn't know what is right for us, what we should or shouldn't do. We look at the face of the person in charge every morning in the bathroom mirror. We know what is best for us, what we think should happen, and if we should be given that second chance or not. I , for one, still have some wild oats that need to be spread. Let me dictate or decide what I will or will not do with them. If I choose to commit a victemless crime by experimenting with LSD or Acid, let it be my choice. If I go over the line and infrige on others or put them into danger, let society deem my punishment. But if the do decide to punish me, at least give me hope. Hope for the present, to become rehabilitated, and also the hope to once again be a full member of the American Society.

USP45usp

*for those going... 10 years.. second chance. Well, if you go bankrupt, the full time before it's off your record is 7 to 10 years. And then you're given a second chance. It's worked for many people, including politicians, why not apply it here.

Just my $2 peso worth.
 
Felony laws are stupid. Once you have served your time and repayed society for your wrong thenyou should be left the f alone. Soon we will get to the point that if you once carried a balance on your card you will forever have to pay the interest. Not a sole would stand for that nonsense, but we all applaud the project Exile's of this country.

SAD. If the punishment truly fit the crime, and pansie liberals would stop f'ing around, this would not be an issue.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top