Enfield Pattern 14

I have a quick question for you all.

Recently I have found a P14 in 303 with the owners says is fully original for what seems a decent price.
What I'm wondering though is, are these rifles much rarer world wide than the No.1 or No.4 Lee Enfields, as I seem to see quite a few of these for sale but not many of the P14s.

Reason being, I'm would prefer to buy a Lee Enfield as thats what I was originally looking for but if the P14s are rare then maybe I should grab it while its available.

Thanks
 
The P14's are a nice rifle and not near as many produced as the No1 and No4 LE's. They are a different rifle, you really need one of each...at least.
 
While the Pattern 14 is less common than other Lee-Enfields, they are by no means rare. As of 1924, the Brits showed more that 764,000 in stores. The P14 was more or less relegated to a reserve, non-frontline position after WWI as it was of non-standard design.

Apparently a good many of them were shipped to India, where they were eventually deactivated and turn into "DP" (Drill Purpose) guns.
 
I wish I had bought a nice P14 when I saw one. They are scarce.

If you can get a good one for a good price buy it. They are harder to find than P17's and Lee Enfields.
 
the P14 is fairly uncommon but not really rare. it was supposed to replace the enfield number 1 in WWI but as I understand it, England fell a little behind on their payments to the U.S. manufacturers and when the U.S. was unable to produce enough 1903s to meet demand, they re chambered millions of P14s, still waiting to be shipped, for 30-06 and called then the M1917. by the time England caught back up with their payments the Number 4 had already been invented and so they discontinued the P14, it's a shame, both the P14 and 1917 are supposed to be great rifles. I've been hoping for one or the other to add to my collection for a while.
 
they re chambered millions of P14s, still waiting to be shipped, for 30-06 and called then the M1917.

You need to fact check that statement.

The British "Pattern 14" design was modified, chambered for the 30-06 and was manufactured by three American firms as the "United States Rifle Model of 1917" or M1917 for short.

April 1917 the US military had about 760,000 rifle in inventory. Rem, Win and Edd were already set up to produce the P14, so they were given contracts to produce a US rifle patterned off the P14 with as few of changes as possible. Chambered in '06 all parts needed to be interchangeable. They went on to produce about 3.4 million M1917's and not a single one was a re-chambered P14.;)
 
P14s were not reworked...

The British contracted for the P14 (.303) to supplement their supply of SMLEs (No 1 Mk IIIs) in WW I, because they were having difficulty meeting the wartime demand for rifles.

When the US entered WW I, (also critcally short of rifles -1903 Springfields) our demands took precedence over the British contracts, and those firms producing the P14s were ordered to make what ever changes were needed to make the rifles in .30-06. The new rifles were named 1917 Enfields.

No previously made Pattern 14 (P14) guns were converted (other then perhaps a prototype or two).

After WW I, the Brits developed the N0.4 SMLE, and the P14s were relegated to substitute standard.
 
thanks guys, I was just going off of what I had read in other forums... as stated I am still new to the milsurp crowd myself and was only going of hearsay.
 
Well, several errors in that. Let's look at the history. The British decided well before WWI that the Mk III SMLE was outdated and they needed a more modern rifle, and designed one based on a combination of the Mauser 1898 and the U.S. M1903 Springfield, with some additions to suit their own needs. They chambered it for a new cartridge, the .276 Enfield. Contrary to what has been written, the .276 Enfield was NOT the .280 Ross; they are very different cartridges, though the .276 Enfield was intended to match the ballistics of the Ross cartridge, which was the darling of the high-velocity crowd at that time.

In any case, the result was called the Pattern 1913, or P-13. As war approached, the British decided that it was not a good time to change ammunition, but they still wanted to keep the new rifle, so they dropped P-13 development after a few thousand had been made and modified the design to use the standard .303 cartridge, calling the rifle the Pattern 1914 or P-14.

The change was made easier by the fact that the .276 Enfield is a very fat cartridge, over 1/2 inch at the base, with a rebated rim, so the magazine could be used with the rimmed .303 without modification.

When war came, the British decided not to produce any more P-14's, and devote their factories to production of the SMLE. But they contracted to three American companies, Remington, Winchester, and a new entity, associated with Remington, to make the new rifle for them. The three factories, at Ilion, NY, New Haven, CT, and Eddystone, PA, produced a total of 1,117,850 P-14 rifles.

Just about the time the British contracts were completed, the U.S. entered the war, with a severe shortage of M1903 rifles. So U.S. Army Ordnance contracted with the same companies to modify the P-14 to use the U.S. .30-'06 ammunition; that rifle was the U.S. Model of 1917. No P-14's were "converted" to use the U.S. cartridge - Model 1917's were new rifles.

1,235,298 Model 1917 rifles were produced and it was the most common rifle in the American Expeditionary Force. After the war, Army Ordnance, for whatever reasons, took the somewhat controversial step of storing the Model 1917 rifles and continuing to treat the M1903 as the standard rifle.

At the onset of WWII, when Britain was under attack, President Roosevelt ordered some 1.1 million Model 1917 rifles sent to England. That was before the Lend Lease act was passed and the action probably was, strictly speaking, illegal.

Since Army Ordnance had considered those rifles to be a good part of the war reserve, and production of the new M1 rifle was then a trickle, they hurriedly contracted with Remington to manufacture the M1903, using tooling from Rock Island Armory that had been in storage.

Jim
 
Jim said:
1,235,298 Model 1917 rifles were produced and it was the most common rifle in the American Expeditionary Force.

Since we have such a large difference in production numbers I had to dig the Ferris book out. Both of us are off about 1 million.

Win- 545,482
Rem- 654,149
Eddy-1,356,643

Total- 2,556,274
 
If the price is good and the rifle is in good shape, buy it. They're not rare, but they are a bit scarce. Any collection of WWI rifles needs a P14 and a P17. It's a good shooter, a bit heavy, but fine for carry.
 
the P14 is fairly uncommon but not really rare. it was supposed to replace the enfield number 1 in WWI but as I understand it, England fell a little behind on their payments to the U.S. manufacturers and when the U.S. was unable to produce enough 1903s to meet demand, they re chambered millions of P14s, still waiting to be shipped, for 30-06 and called then the M1917. by the time England caught back up with their payments the Number 4 had already been invented and so they discontinued the P14, it's a shame, both the P14 and 1917 are supposed to be great rifles. I've been hoping for one or the other to add to my collection for a while.

Wow! It's amazing how many fairy tales get promulgated on forums.:eek:
 
Since Army Ordnance had considered those rifles to be a good part of the war reserve, and production of the new M1 rifle was then a trickle, they hurriedly contracted with Remington to manufacture the M1903, using tooling from Rock Island Armory that had been in storage.

Interestingly enough, Remington did make a prototype Springfield 1903 in .303 British.
 
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