Enfield No.4/5 magazines not intended to be removed?

A

AEM

New member
I have a sixties-vintage copy of the No. 5 Jungle Carbine in .303 British which I understand was converted from a No. 4 by Santa Fe Arms. It came with a five shot magazine manufactured in Japan for Santa Fe. A few years ago I purchased a surplus 10 round magazine and tucked it away.

After thirty years or so, I've dusted off the old rifle and have been shooting it. Actually, the first opportunity I had to use it was as a backup in a tactical rifle match when my AR broke --did pretty well too, except that surplus 10 round mag was very difficult to load into the well and cost me some valuable seconds. It is a very tight fit on all sides and will just barely fit the well.

I did some reading to make sure I was using a No. 4 mag (it is) and found several references stating that the rifle was intended to be loaded from the top with stripper clips, and the magazine wasn't intended to be removed.

Is that right? I've always thought one of the Enfield's best features was the detachable magazine. Has anyone had a problem with magazines not fitting? Maybe I just have a bad mag; where is a good source for ordering a few to see if they will work with my rifle?

Thanks in advance.
 
Your reading is correct.

In general usage the ONLY time the magazine was to be removed was for cleaning, repair, or replacement.

.303 ammo was loaded in 5-round stripper clips, which were inserted in the two semi-circular cutouts on the top rear of the action.

Order yourself some stripper clips, and learn how to load them properly. There is a very specific loading sequencen that must be followed because the round is rimmed. If you don't insert the rounds into the stripper in that order, the rims can overlap when they are being fed through the magazine, causing a jam.
 
Thank you, Mike. Any idea where I can find the stripper clips or the info on the loading sequence?

I have to say I'm a little disappointed! The Enfield is a great old battle rifle. Why not design it to accept detachable magazines? A bandolier of 10 round mags would seem preferable to ammo loaded in stripper clips, although I realize the stripper clips were state of the art at the time.

Do you see any harm in trying to modify magazines(I guess by filing down the outside dimensions) to allow rapid magazine changes?

Thanks again for the help.
 
the problem is the mag catch

My experience is that the magazine catch on a Lee-Enfield is very stiff and takes a hearty shove and must be held down to remove the magazine.

One potential problem with using different magazines is that the feed lips may not be set right for best feeding from all magazines for all ammo. IMHO if you have one mag that works well, stick with it.

Also, the 5 round stripper clips, when loaded correctly, worked great for me. The nice thing about the L-E 10 round mag is that if you're in a hurry, you can be down 6, 7, or 8 shots through the mag, then dump the stripper clip's 5 down in the mag, then remove the clip, slam the bolt shut, and you're back in action, though not necessarily with a full 10. With a Mauser or such, you either wait until you're completely empty (not a good idea IMHO) or get used to shoving partial clips into the mag and figuring out what to do with stripper clips with leftover rounds on them.

Unless I'm facing a banzai charge, I don't think I'll need all 10 rounds from the mag anyway. If it's that bad a day, I shoulda brought something with a 30 round mag.

...but I still love my Lee-Enfields.

Edmund
 
AEM,

I think the detachable magazine feature was designed into the Lee simply for ease of cleaning as well as replacement if the protrouding magazine was damaged on the battlefield.

You also have to remember that when the Lee Metford (the L-E's predecessor) and the L-E was designed, the magazine was exactly that, a place for storing ammo.

The rifle was designed with a magazine cutoff, which prevent ammo from being fed from the magazine. Soldiers were trained to load individual rounds, taken from ammo belts. The magazine was there as an emergency supply in case extremely rapid fire was needed, such as to turn back a charge.

It was felt that this would promote accurate fire and would keep the troops from wasting ammunition.

That, of course, went out in World War I, when the magazine cutoff was one of the first things to be dropped from the rifle as a manufacturing expediency.

What didn't change, though was the concept that the magazine was to remain a part of the gun.

Rapid loading was solved with the introduction of the stripper clips around, IIRC, 1908 in response to the Mauser rifle.

A soldier trained in the use of stripper clips could reload his rifle probably as quickly as changing magazines.

The strippers also allowed for more ammo to be carried. 10 rounds in strippers are a lot lighter, and less bulky, than 10 rounds in a spare magazine.

As for where to get the clips, I really don't know. Possibly Gun Parts Corporation in New York.

NRA produces a very good book on the Lee-Enfield rifles that is sold through their book service. It's a compilation of articles that have been in the magazine, along wtih other tidbits that have been printed over the years in Dope Bag, Q&A, etc. I distinctly remember there being a photo and explanation on how to properly orient the ammo in the clips.
 
The loading sequence for the stripper clips is not intuitive. Since this is the first you have heard if it, you may not even believe it. The sequence calls for the two end cartridges and the center cartridge to have their case heads touching the stripper clip, and the other two with their rims above the three just mentioned. In other words, case heads down, up, down, up, down.
Stripper clips are available at Springfield Sporters, 2257 Springfield Road, Penn Run, PA 15765, 1-724-254-2626
 
For stripper clips,..thry this link
http://www.floridaammotraders.com/

I recently purchased some .303 on strippers and packed in badoliers from these guys,....I think I paid something like $15 for a set. Each set has 50 rnds, 10 clips and 1 bandolier



And yes, you must stagger the position of the rounds in order for them to load correctly.


If you cant find any,...I may have a few i'd be willing to turn lose.


Good luck!
 
I love that philosophy about the troops wasting ammo if they used the magazine. Have far we have regressed. I am spending a lot of time with a MK 4, No. 1 that I bought about a month ago. I churned out my first reloads for it tonight. Of course with no magazine cut off, I have to watch myself.
 
Watch that "spray and pray syndrome," 444!

LOL, 444.

Thanks everyone for your help. Last night I got the rifle and mags out and found that if I depress the mag release, and keep it depressed, during both removal and insertion the magazine goes in and out without a hitch. It is a little awkward, but I'd rather have the ability to change magazines that to rely soley on stripper clips. I do plan to get some stripper clips and practice, though. Gun Parts lists magazines at about $20 each, so I will probably get a couple and see if they aren't as tight a fit as the one I have now.

On reloading for the .303, keep in mind the propensity of the rear locking action to stretch, and the possibility of a generously dimensioned or worn chamber, resulting in excessive headspace. For casual shooting, it is probably best to adjust the resizing die so that it sizes the neck only. That way the case is adjusted to fit the headspace of your rifle. If the ammo is to be used for defense or other critcal use, it probably should be full length resized. It wouldn't be a bad idea to have the headspace checked by a gunsmith.

I have read that sooner or later the .303 reloader will experience a case head separation, and that two critcal things to have are (1) eye protection (ALWAYS), and (2) a case head removal tool which used to be made by Marbles and maybe still is.

Thanks again to everyone. Participating in this forum really enhances the pleasure of rediscovering this great old rifle. Of course, using the Jungle Carbine to beat an AR15 shooter in a man-on-man drill didn't hurt either! :D
 
AEM,

Adjusting your sizing die doesn't do much at all for the headspace on your rifle. Because it's a rimmed cartridge, headspace is controlled by the thickness of the rim.

It's always a good idea to have the headspace checked by a gunsmith before you get too deep into any shooting or reloading projects for your rifle.

Neck sizing only will help with brass life, but you need to remember that no matter what you do, these cases probably are not going to last as long as cases for a .308 or .30-06.


444,

While it seems funny now, the concept of controlling the ammunition expenditure of your troops by making them follow a set routine of loading drills was, in the days of the musket, the only way to get any sort of telling fire; by throwing up a wall of lead in vollies.

A great film example of disciplined volley fire is found in the movie Zulu, where the British troops use advancing rank volley fire to drive back the Zulus after they have breached the defensive perimiter.

It was just one of those things from the old tactics school that didn't die out when it should have.

Interestingly enough, the American 1903 Springfield was one of the last, if not the last, infantry rifles designed with a magazine cutoff.

That cutoff feature was also present in rifles made by Remington and Smith-Corona during World War II, although I suspect that by that time single-loading fire wasn't taught anymore. :)
 
Thanks, Mike.

I guess I was trying to say that once a case has been fired in your rifle, the shoulder has moved forward to match the chamber. This would be true even with a rimmed cartridge, unless headspace was so excessive that the case separated on the first firing.

If in reloading you full-length resize that case and push the shoulder back to the starting place, the entire case will stretch again each time you fire it. Eventually, the case will separate at the web, back near the head. Neck sizing should allow the case to fit the chamber better with less stretching upon firing, even with a rimmed cartridge. Neck sizing doesn't cure excessive headspace caused by the rifle, but lets you adjust the case to take up as much of the excess headspace as possible. The cases are then custom fitted to your rifle, and may not chamber in a different rifle with less headspace.

At least this is what I have read. I've never had a case separation, knock on wood (Is there a smilie for "knocking on wood"?).
 
Nobody told me

so for 33 years I have been taking the magazine out of my No.4 and reloading it and reinserting it. Golly gee I hope I haven't done any harm. Toughest magazine I ever saw.
 
America First,

Well, you certainly haven't been doing your rifle any harm.

However, were you a Tommy Atkins, you'd have been given punishment duty. :)


AEM,

Ah, gotcha on what you were saying before. I should have realized that. Yes, the procedure that you describe certainly will make your cases last longer.

Depending on the condition of your rifle, full-length sizing .303 cases can result in case failures after as few as 3 firings.

Luckily, however, these failures normally pose no risk to the shooter, as it normally happens in the neck.
 
Chuck R ... thanks for the "up - down" info on the strippers. I just tried this on my '42 Long Branch and it makes a world of difference.

Was it intended to cram ANOTHER 5 down on top of the first five with a stripper to complete the mag loading? This seems difficult ... I can only do it smoothly about one out of ten tries - and it seems to take a LOT of effort from the thumbs to compress rounds and spring together.
 
I decided with my Enfield to introduce a little variety to my reloading, so I am doing my loading with a Lee Loader, which of course only neck sizes (I have ordered a set of FL dies assuming my brass lasts long enough to need full length resizing). For the relatively low number of rounds I am loading, I find the Lee Loader to be faster and simpler than using my regular loading methods. I am new to this military rifle loading, but it seemed logical to me that you would want to use a load that closely approximates the service load so that the ladder sight will be accurate as to it's graduations ? So I chose the Hornady 174 grain spire point and a velocity around 2400 fps. I chose IMR 4895 at random. I had most of the powders in the manual, but decided to try this first. I used a Stoney Point O.A.L. Gauge to have some idea as to my OAL but found that with that bullet and my rifle, the bullet would be clear out of the case to get close to the lands. So I just seated to the cannulure. I have read a number of threads indicating that these are very accurate rifles, but I haven't been real impressed with mine, so I was hoping that maybe some careful reloading might do wonders for it. I have a rough spot in my bore about half way down which may be the culprit, I don't know. Any advice would be appreciated.
 
444,

It sounds like your chamber and/or throat is really generous, which is common in military rifles. I would seat the bullet out as far as possible, as long as the rounds still feed through the magazine and have enough bullet in the neck that it fits tightly.

I would try different brands of bullets next. I believe bullets make the largest difference in accuracy.

I know what you mean about getting back to basics. Recently I wanted to reload for a .308 but didn't have dies. I dug out my old Lyman 310 tong tool chambered for 30'06 and found I could neck size the .308. I'm getting three rounds touching at 100 yards with a 5x scope and an improvised rest, so I'm happy.
 
I tried my first batch of reloads and the accuracy was much improved over the stuff I had tried in the past. I can now at least keep them all in the black of a 25 yard pistol target from 100 yards. I got at least one group of like 3"-4". Now this isn't a true test of the rifles accuracy because I am just leaning against the bed of my pickup, and it has been windy every day I have shot so far. All in all, I think it is shaping up OK. I think I am going to try some round nose bullets rather than the spire points to see if I can get them closer to the lands. I am having a good time getting this to shoot. I was actually thinking about using this rifle for this years' deer season. I think it is shooting well enough now. After about 120 rounds fired, and cleaning after every 20 rounds, my bore is really starting to shine.
 
Lee Loader IMR 4895

444 I have the same lee loader in .303British I have been using for hell since Dec 67. I used Sierra 180 spitzers and I had very nice accuracy from it. Today just easier to buy a box of ammo when we go to the range. Yet I know that I can always reload if necessary. I save all my brass even though I don't reload anymore LOL
 
What you are hearing on the magazines of the #4 is correct; normally it just stayed in the rifle and I am not aware that extra magazines were EVER issued or used.

Pay particular attention to the neck sizing requirements for any .303 case life. If you full length size as per normal you will get head separations in three firings; perhaps in only two. The simplest and easiest solution is, yes, the old Lee Loader, crude as it may be. I ran a small lot of cases for an experiment and got eight firings out of them before I got tired. It works.

Suggest you check over at the '.303 Page' or the Lee-Enfield site at G&K. Lots of very sharp, helpful folks over there.

I somehow accumulated five Lee-Enfields; different, but fun and educational.

BTW even if you do get a head separation it's not that traumatic. You probably won't know it until you either inspect the case or extract the head only. Just make sure that you wear proper eye protection. A ruptured case extractor is a good investment, though.
 
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