End of Damascus?

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davlandrum

New member
Just a quick question for the savants of the shotgun:

When did damascus barrels stop being produced in quantity?

I tried wiki and googling, and searched this forum.

I am trying to determine how likely it is that someone will run across one randomly today. One of my co-teachers for hunter ed ate up 25 minutes of class walking around with his two shotguns, explaining how they were made, and the dangers of using modern ammo in them.

I can see 5 minutes of the safety aspect - but seriously, it is not like you can go buy one accidently at the Wally-World...

If there are a LOT of them floating around, I will admit I am wrong and let it go, but we are already a full chapter behind and this was only the second class session....
 
I dont really understand your question... Didnt they stop making the because they couldnt hold up to the pressures of modern 12 ga. loads?
 
That was at least one of the reasons, others probably due to manufacturing techniques evolving.

So the question is when did they stop manufacturing them as the standard way of making shotgun barrels?

My irritation stemmed from spending a ton of class time about an issue with guns produced how long ago, 100 years, 150 years.

My FIL said they were antiques in the 1950s, and that was 60 years ago...
 
I think he wants to be able to say to his students, "If your gun is newer than 19?? don't concern yourself about a damascus barrel."
 
There are a LOT of older guns floating around - many folks here talk about finding one in grandpa's barn or a pawn shop. Damascus barreled shotguns CAN be fired AFTER they have been checked and OK'd by a competent smith who knows what to look for. Many folks who shoot at The Vintagers do just that.

That being said, there are a lot that are not safe to shoot in their current configuration. They can be sleeved to accept smokeless, low-pressure loads, or shot as is IF they are deemed OK.

They are not as strong as "fluid steel" which replaced them in production about a century or so ago, and are typically NOT safe with modern high-pressure loads like those found at wally world.

There are one or two modern-made guns with Damascus, but, IIRC, the Damascus is an overlay on modern steel
 
Lavid - yes you can tell

Oneounce - alright, if it is "a lot", I will get over myself. I just felt like we lost our focus last night by talking about something not very common for a long time.

It is hard enough to cover all the required material in the amount of time we have in class...
 
There are a LOT of older guns floating around - many folks here talk about finding one in grandpa's barn or a pawn shop.
Click to expand...
I have seen them at Pawn Shops. They are still out there.

Damascus barreled shotguns CAN be fired AFTER they have been checked and OK'd by a competent smith who knows what to look for
Click to expand...

I would not. These are black powder era barrels. Coiling a rod, or a bundle of wires around a mandrel was a method of making a barrel, but the welds have to be perfect along every joint. Such perfection is unobtainable.

I don't know how anyone can non destructively inspect one of these things. Maybe we have some NDI experts out there who can verify. But it is not just the welds, it is also the strength of the poor steels and soft steels of the era.
 
Few Damascus or twist barrels were made after WWI. Relatively few after 1900.

Besides the possibility of these old barrels not holding up to modern ammo or even equivalent BP or low pressures smokeless loads, there's also the chamber length. Few shotguns made before WWI have 2 3/4" chambers.

Best answer I can give here if the thing was made before WWII, a trip to the smith for a checkover is mandatory. And a darn good idea for stuff made before, say, 1980 when nontoxic ammo is included.
 
Damascus barrels are still made but rarely .Some of these are "damascus type" not true damascus and are stainless steel. Damascus has always varied a lot .Some would hold up to modern loads. There was even fake damascus where the pattern was just etched on. The real damascus was made with two different steels which would etch differently. The early guns are now old and must be treated as such .After careful inspection fire only light loads ,perhaps BP would be better ,and fire few of those.
 
I have to agree with the OP. I remember when I took a hunter ed class in high school -1990- the instructor spent a fare amount of time warning of the dangers of old twist or Damascus barrels, I don't believe I have ever came across one. I think it warrants about 5-10 mins at the most.
 
davlandrum,
Your point is well made and when you have a group of 5-10 students, for about and hour and still have the live fire to do, 25 minutes talking about old shotguns, is a waste of time. Instead, he should be enforcing the four basic gun handling safety rules. Each Hunter Ed. class, has an agenda, manual and final test. These elemements are where we need to focus our attention. You also have to keep in mind that most of these young folks, have an attention span of ten minutes at the most. We cover a whole bunch of basic information at our station so we can get to the live fire excercise.



Be Safe !!!
 
http://www.damasteel.com/firearms.html
This is a stainless steel "damascus" .Not a true damascus because it's made from powder metal .If you look at the rest of the website you'll see other applications for the material.As it's used for knives it's certainly strong enough for gun barrels.
 
mete - Damascus shotgun barrels have nothing to do with the Damascus steel used for knives. They aren't related. As others have stated, the Damascus shotgun barrels were made by twisting steel around a mandrel in order to form a barrel. This left a large number of potential weak spots where the edges of the steel wires meet. The result is that these shotgun barrels are not safe to use with modern smokeless powder shotgun shells. They simply can't contain the pressure safely, and are likely to explode on you.
 
Damascus...an old storied name

Got its reputation from the superior blades forged in Damascus, which used layers of steel and sometimes steel and iron, to produce a blade which would take a fine edge, and retain flexibility as well.

Eventually, all layered steel became known as "Damascus", just as all porcelain coated metal kitchen ware became known as "Japaned". Ah the joys of slang from more than a century ago.

"True" Damascus barrels were made by winding steel rods around a mandrel and hammer welding them together. The high grade ones used 6 or 8 strands, while lower grade used 4 or only 2 strands. These "lower" grade barrels were also known as stub twist.

In general, fluid steel barrels, and later nickel steel replaced Damascus and stub twist beginning in the very early 1900s. I have a 1909 Ithaca, with fluid steel barrels. It was my grandfather's gun, which he bought new, to replace a stub twist gun that he sold to a neighbor. That stub twist gun blew out a barrel in the 1940s.

Small numbers of "damascus" guns were made until about WWII, but general production stopped back in the WW I era. My 1909 gun has 2 3/4" chambers, but the 2 1/2 and 2 9/16" were popular lengths until about WWII, so any pre WWII shotgun ought to have the chamber checked by a smith, unless clearly marked as to chamber length.

Safe only for black powder pressures, Damascus guns probably should not be shot, even with black powder shells, considering the century plus age, and the nature of their construction. There is no way to tell if age and rust have taken hold inside the barrel steel, between the welds, and so firing them, even with the proper ammo is a risky business.

All that ought to be covered in a safety class today, is that any old shotgun that has rings/wavy lines in the barrel is suspect damascus and should NEVER be used with modern ammo. Mentioning the difference in chamber length in old shotguns is useful, as many fluid steel or nickel steel guns, safe for modern pressures were made with the old shorter chambers, and would be unsafe when fired with the longer ammo common today.
 
Damascus, twist, and laminate steel barreled vintage guns can be safely fired. A lot has to do with the condition of the gun and what type of ammo is being used. Most of the vintage 12ga guns fired lower pressure 2-1/2 in shells, so don't try to use modern 2-3/4 ammo in them. Smokeless loaded to black powder pressures is normally the safest way to go. If you plan on shooting vintage shotguns, get into reloading or buy specialty ammo. Barrel condition is another issue; most of these guns were made in the time of corrosive ammo, and if not properly cleaned became badly pitted.

There a many myths out there about these barrels. Contrary to popular belief, they were strong. In the 1800's, these barrel making methods were the only way to make a strong light weight barrel. The beautiful grain patterns were just a side benefit. Down side was the labor involved: three or four men heating, twisting, and pounding metal strands around a mandrel just to make barrel. Improved steel making processes in the 20th century allowed plain steel barrels to be made which were just as strong, but at a lower cost.
 
World War I killed virtually all Damascus barrel production in Europe. Some in Spain were still making Damascus barrels after the war, but very, very few.

Some years ago a friend and I laid hands on a ragged out Damascus barreled shotgun. We made sure it wasn't worth anything, then proceeded to pressure test it.

It withstood one of my light trap loads, but the pheasant load opened it up like nobody's business.

EDIT:

I should note that that load was not a pheasant load, but a duck load with steel shot.

So, the barrel failure may not have been pressure related alone.
 
In the autumn 2009 issue of "The Double Gun Journal", there's an article in which a number of these old shotguns were tested with modern 18,000psi "proof" loads. There were no failures. Any barrel can be unsafe due to horrible pitting, cracks, or obstructions. Older barrels are more likely to have these defects, but so often the failure is wrongly blamed on the material not the defect. It is common in Europe for vintage guns with damascus barrels in good shape to be retested a proof house and approved for modern smokeless loads.
 
Safety in Hunter Education

If safety was the topic, I would think a better use of the time would have been to discuss using 'unknown' reloads for hunting.
Just my 2 cents as a HE Instructor.
 
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