Elian grab

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jlflegal

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If you know anyone that doubts the need for an armed citizenry have them watch the Elian grab video.
Doors smashed in and storm trooopers with assault rifles (!?) invading a private residence.
Now they can KNOW why our forefathers put the right to bear arms in our Constitution. Not just to protect us from crime but tyranny. Then King George, now Bill Clinton.
The Million Mommies ought to ask a million German Jew moms or Russian moms who lived thru Stalin if they will march with them. Not a chance!
Tell them to buy a gun TODAY, join the NRA TODAY, and in November vote out those socialist anti-gun politicians.

Fellow TFL's, Now is the time to write your congressman and your newspapers. Tell people to watch that video again and again and again until they understand what the anti-gun agenda is REALLY about.
 
Here's the full story about the Alien Gonzalez grabbing.

Little Havana shocked at Elian seizure
http://www.usatoday.com/news/ndssat07.htm
MIAMI (AP) -More than 20 agents in several white vans arrived at the Little Havana home of Lazaro Gonzalez shortly after 5 a.m., using rams on the home's chain-link fence and front door.

Once inside, they found the boy, who was being hidden in a bedroom closet by his great-aunt and Donato Dalrymple, one of the fishermen who rescued him on Thanksgiving Day.

In the bedroom, an agent in green riot gear and goggles pointed an automatic rifle at Dalrymple holding the frightened child, an image captured by an Associated Press photographer and broadcast around the world. Agents then took Elian out of Dalrymple's arms.

A short time later, a woman and man brought Elian out of the home and put him in one of the vans, which sped off. Maria Elena Quesada, who was at the home, said Elian was screaming ''Help me! Help me! Don't take me away!'' in Spanish.

mhv03d_full.jpg




[This message has been edited by ArmySon (edited April 22, 2000).]
 
Perhaps the trooper, sorry, the "agent" is saying,
"I'm from the government! I'm here to help you!"

And for our panel of experts:
1) What firearm is the "agent" using?
2) What magazine does the "agent" have?
3) Are American citizens free to purchase the same items?

[This message has been edited by Dennis (edited April 22, 2000).]
 
Jeff's comments. Warning - may offend the faint of heart.

The Florida family should have turned Elian over to his father instead of using him as a pawn against Castro. This has degenerated from a matter of reuniting a man with his son into a costly international situation, that ultimately may cast more brownie points to Cuba than the anti-Castro protestors could ever want. I don't have to agree with the federal tactics used but I also am less than thrilled with what amounted to Lazaro's challenge to the blood bond between parent and child in the name of making a political statement. I believe the Florida relatives loved Elian but they (with or without pressure from their community) had as much to blame for the raid as Reno's Roughnecks.

Some thoughts on this issue -

1. Castro is an a$$hole. But, my understanding of the situation is that the guy who ruled Cuba beforehand, a dicktator named Batista, was even worse, with mass murder, mass discrimination against black skinned Cubans, much of the population being forced to slave in plantations and child prostitution. But, Batista was a friend to the United States so such crimes were overlooked. The Mafia (Meyer Lansky in particular) allegedly had a firm hold on Cuban gambling casinos. Cuban cigars and exotic vacation areas attracted international tourists who either didn't see or took advantage of the poverty and beaten population. Apparently, Batista's reign of terror is pretty well documented as well as the US government's association with him. Schools don't teach about it cause of the embarassment or complexity.

Saddam Hussein of Iraq used to be the buddy of America as well, right up through the 80s. So were the horrid Marcos's in the Fillipines.
The most vocal segment of the Florida Cuban population are Batista cronies or descended from them. Many had the wealth, which they had raped from the land, to come overhere when Castro and angry common people overthrew the dictator. Too bad the news keeps that quiet and simply focuses on how bad a person Castro is.
As has happened before in the 20th century, the communists who use the angry people to take over a nation usually wind up screwing the people. Happened in Russia, China, Cambodia, North Korea....
Cuba is no exception, though the nation is supposed to be a bit better now then under Batista.

2. Don't we have a USA base out in
Guantanamo Bay, IN CUBA!!! Been there for many years. Now, if we really considered Cuba to be ultra evil and a big Godless threat, why would we leave an unprotected base in Cuban territory? Allowing for the fact that Castro is an a$$hole, the media wants to make him out to be worse and demonize him and Cuba. On the otherhand, our government is playing buddy buddy with China. Got nothing against the Chinese people but their government, with a corrupt infrastructure, ethnic divide and teeming millions of mouths to feed, will represent more of a threat to us than Cuba ever could be.

If Cuba is such a problem, we would have invaded it already. And there would be no Bay of Pigs fiasco this time.

3. Elian's video. I have watched enough performances to know that one was faked. If you see it again, especially those of you who are moms, watch the poor child's moving hands and different motions. He was following cues just like any actor. Those were not the loose body movements of a six year old but the planned motion of a performer. A voice expert on tv commented on the tape and said it was all rehearsed, noting that Elian's vocabularly and use of phrasing was not that of a typical child.
The video was designed to fool the public and appeal to your emotions. The folks Elian lives with now, and alot of the idiots protesting in the streets (doesn't anybody have jobs or families to attend down there?) are using the kids for political ends. Didja know that two of Elian's guardians have driving under the influence records, another was involved in assault? Those are the ones I recall from a rap sheet.
That bunch is USING the kid, despite their claims of doing everything they can to protect him.
They may love Elian but they love him more as a political pawn than as a child.
4. Kid's pop should have custody of him. If I were Elian's dad, I wouldn't want to go near Florida, either. Too many excited people to deal with. If Elian came from any other nation, we'd have returned him already to the individual who by law and blood has proper custody over him.
Heard that Elian spent the weeks with his father and weekends with his estranged or divorced mom. Mom's boyfriend supposedly persuaded her to make that fateful trip.

5. Alot of foreign born Florida Cubans should be deported for treason - they are breaking the same laws they swore to uphold in America. Revoke their citizenship. Bye Bye. We are seeing a street level lobbying group in action and it isn't pretty.

Or, give them guns and training and have them settle things with Castro. Easy to scream safely from American shores and throw debri for the cameras.
Or, America should declare war on Castro and after great loss of life and destruction, wipe out the Godless communists (but the world press would condemn us). Of course, any government we established in post-Castro Cuba should not repeat the mistakes of the Batista and communist dictatorships.
Jeff
 
Jffl:

While I agree with everything you say, the Government did this wrong. I do not agree with these storm trooper tactics and pointing guns in people's faces. There are too many Government paramilitary organizations, all aimed at their own citizens!

One thing that bothers me the most is there was no court ordered warrent to sieze the child! It was ordered by a mere administrator, the President. "Rule of Law" he always says unitl it is inconvient for him to do so.

As much as I don't agree with how the courts were ruling on this issue, that fact is, it was still in the courts. The executive branch, by gunpoint, set the court aside. This is wrong.
 
" With Liberty and Justice for all "...unless you live on Ruby Ridge, in Waco, in Ventura County, in Miami..etc etc.

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Sam I am, grn egs n packin

Nikita Khrushchev predicted confidently in a speech in Bucharest, Rumania on June 19, 1962 that: " The United States will eventually fly the Communist Red Flag...the American people will hoist it themselves."
 
Jffal, regarding Castro vs. Batista two wrongs don't make it right. Where do you get your facts about Batista? Could it be from the pro Castro supporters. You talk about political pawns and that is exactly what Castro will do with Elian. The US supported Iraq because at the time Iraq was the lesser of two evils when compared to Iran. The lesser of two evils, kind of like voting for Republican or Democrat.

the media wants to make him out to be worse and demonize him and Cuba.

When has the National Media demonized Castro? Give me some examples.

5. Alot of foreign born Florida Cubans should be deported for treason - they are breaking the same laws they swore to uphold in America. Revoke their citizenship. Bye Bye. We are seeing a street level lobbying group in action and it isn't pretty.

Treason? Please explain this one, I'm at a lost with your logic.

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"Gun Control is Only to Protect Those in Power"
 
Jffal,

Take a look at the picture. Sure seems Elian couldn't wait to see his Dad.

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For God so loved the world that he gave his onlly begoten Son...
 
To me this is not about Castro, Elian, it
is about what (our) country is becoming,we
are losing more freedom each day with a slow
movement to total government control. Make
no mistake "everything" this government does
is to show the states/people who is in
charge,it is slow like a cancer but it comes.

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I hope these photos get as wide spread coverage as possible up to November. The American people need to see the kind of people they have put in charge of OUR government!

May Bill Clinton and Janet Reno rot in HELL!
 
"The president in the 2:45 conversation with Mr. Podesta had told them to continue the negotiations as long as they thought that was fruitful but if they determined that the negotiations were no longer fruitful he supported them moving forward," Lockhart told Reuters.

If we are to follow the President's example and interpretation of the law, we should continue negotiating with gun grabbers as long as we think that is fruitful, but if we determine that the negotiations are no longer fruitful, we should "move forward", which apparently means taking automatic weapons into the homes and faces of our opponents.

I'm not advocating such action, but extrapolating what passes for logic with these people gives you a frightening idea of how evil they truly are.
 
Jfall,

I don't know where you get your info about Batista, he was a corrupt dictator, but there is no doubt Cubans were a hell of a lot freer in Cuba under Batista than Castro.

A simple test holds in almost every case. If people are shot for trying to leave Cuba now, how can that be better than Batista where people were free to leave and return?
The American media has shown its bias with Latin American dictators: heros, such as Pinochet are villified where tyrannts, such as Castro aren't.

Secondly, what are you talking about treason?
When you become a US citizen I very much doubt you take an oath to do whatever the feds tell you.

I think a lot of the criticism of this action is based on the fact that it wasn't done in a civilized manner. Why charge unarmed citizens with machine guns when they are not acting violent in any way? Are you telling me that you've never seen a person arrested without having a gun pointed at them?

I bet Al Gore is hating life right now. That photo has probably sealed his loss in Florida.
 
That photo is going to haunt the Clinton administration for a very, very long time.

I'll bet there are some federal boys that have been receiving 'retraining' today on how to handle the press ...
wink.gif
 
Hello walangkatapat
Regarding my facts on Batista - I knew only a little about the chap and that time period (history is full of too many skeletons to keep track of) but the Elian controversy dredged up some details.

One source is Irv Homer, a card carrying Libertarian radio show host at Philadelphia's own WWDB 96.5 FM
Homer has apparently stated he isn't too thrilled with Castro, either, but had been to Cuba during the Batista years and was more than a little shaken up by such institutions as child prostitution. Irv, by the way, is a WW II veteran, and is very pro-self defense and packs a concealed handgun. He is also very much against government and corporate intrusion into our remaining rights and privacy. Homer's big beef is that many individuals react emotionally to issues today without knowing about the events leading up to current events.

If you cite to Irv cases on how the Demos have eroded our rights since Slick Willy took over, he likely will fall back on a list of how the Republicans ravaged our liberty during the Reagan/Bush years. He finds only superficial differences between both parties these days.

I haven't ascertained the political persuasion of the creators of the site below but it may be of some interest.

A Biography of Fulgencio Batista http://www.historyofcuba.com/history/batista.htm

As for whether the correct action was taken by using force to bring Elian out of the house...honestly, would Federal employees in Men In Black suites and carrying ID up the kazoo have been invited into the residence to obtain the child after a polite on premises discussion and out again without obstruction? The Gonzalez family and the (at the time) small crowd outside were too worked up emotionally about the whole issue, after weeks of issuing challenges to Elian's father and turning a custody case into one of international dispute. Feds would have gone in slow and gotten caught up in a nasty situation, either getting forced away empty handed or finding themselves in a mire of angry residents.

Sure, it would have been fun to see the Klintonistas recieve an even worse black eye than this little mission will earn them, right? But when all the anti-government feeling is brushed aside, there was no good reason for Elian not to be returned to his father peacefully prior to this date.

As for firearms being pointed in the vicinity of civilians, perhaps an NRA demand for better Federal kop training is needed.
Jeff
 
So how big a deal do you think all this would have been minus the manipulating, 'caring' family that told the father, the law, and all of us to get stuffed, and the slavering media? There are international child custody cases involving INS every day. I damn-guarantee you that the guy with the MP5 didn't want to be there any more than the cop who shoots someone on a domestic call that goes bad.

Life is tough. It's tougher when you're stupid. And there are consequences.

Personally, I think they should have loaned that MP5 to Elian's father and let him go in.

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Salon News | All in Elián's family
Address:http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2000/04/08/family/index.html

A little info on the Gonzalez family.
 
To all of you who are crying about the way the US government handled this issue: I say about damn time. The child was an illegal alien in our country--that is it plain and simple! The INS officials are constantly fighting this battle on the borders. Nobody cries or whimpers when illegal drug traffikers are busted or vanloads of illegal aliens are caught attempting to gain access to our country. How is this different!! What would you like for us to do next? Allow the kid to stay? Well then we would be hypocrites and have to open our borders to everyone. Where do we draw the line!? The kid belongs to his father...not the uncle! The majority of you whining have probably never served proudly in our countries armed forces. We have died protecting our borders so whiners like you can rant and rave with the freedom of speech you have not earned! We, the soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines have fought to give you this! You are just taking it all for granted. If you don't like this WONDERFUL country we live in, then pack your bags and GET THE HELL OUT! Go to Cuba, Russia or any place at all outside our borders. In about a week you will be crying to be let back in! You can only take advantage of the things you have. Once they are gone, you are S.O.L.! In my opinion, it is more of a shame how long was spent negotiating in the first place. Elian was basically being held hostage. Should have happened sooner!
 
BMiracle,

Since I have, in your opinion, "earned" the right to free speech by having served in the military, allow me to say this:

For the last 40 years, all Cubans who can reach these shores are automatically granted political asylum.
Elian is, therefore, not an illegal alien.

Please check your facts before resorting to such vituperative ranting.



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Audemus jura nostra defendere
 
The only bright spot is that whether you think Elian should stay or be with his father the Clinton administration made a mess of it.

It isn't necessary to use paramilitary forces to reunite a 6 year old with his father. This points to the growing use of inappropriate force in this country by the US, state, and municipal governments. Seems like these guys think the A-Team TV show was the ideal example of police forces.

This one will cost Clinton/Gore big time.

org
 
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